Balanced Bites Podcast #406: You already freaking know this (or, Diet Culture vs. Body Positivity vs. Everything Else vs. *YOU*)

Intermittent fasting with Michelle Shapiro

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Episode 406: Michelle Shapiro, RD returns to talk coddling vs. compassion; Food Freedom (is it a lie?), whether “all foods fit,” survival vs. optimization; fear, trauma, and your authentic voice; functional nutrition; and math.

Transcripts are automatically generated, so may not always accurately reflect the words/phrases used or the individuals speaking.

Welcome to the new Balanced Bites Podcast! I’m your host, Liz, a nutritional therapy practitioner and best selling author bringing you candid, up-front, myth-busting and thought-provoking conversations about food, fitness, and life.

Remember:  The information in this podcast should not be considered personal, individual, or medical advice.

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Hi, friends! Today’s episode is the second of several upcoming chats with Michelle Shapiro, who is an Integrative and Functional Registered Dietitian from New York City who has served over 1000 clients in reversing their anxiety, healing longstanding gut issues and approaching weight loss lovingly – and in a body neutral way. And because if you haven’t fallen in love with Michelle already, I KNOW you’re about to, so I’ll give you some good news. Yes, she’s going to be a regular here, but she also has her own podcast, the  “Quiet the Diet” podcast which you can find wherever you get your podcasts. So with that information, you won’t have to experience Michelle withdrawal. You can also find her @michelleshapirord on IG and, and by the way, she DOES take 1:1 clients, this is a question I got dozens of times after our first show.

I adore Michelle and her fearless, layered, nuanced, hilarious take on nutrition and life, so let’s jump right in to our conversation.

[00:00:00] Liz Wolfe: There we go. You probably got a notification that was recording. So what I wanna do is, First me, then you and me. And then on February 8th, I want to put out the episode that I just recorded with Kara Robinson Chamberlain, who was abducted at 15 years old, held captive by a serial killer and assaulted repeatedly, and she escaped.

[00:00:24] Liz Wolfe: And so her whole thing, she has a lifetime movie. She has a documentary she has, she’s amazing. And she, her platform, or part of her platform is. True. The consumption of true crime needs to be tempered, or you need to be informed and understand that very often the victims are not being compensated for their stories being told.

[00:00:47] Liz Wolfe: They’re being retraumatized over and over and over again. She was like, imagine your worst day and imagine the worst day of your entire life. And then imagine you turn on the TV and somebody is telling that story without your consent 

[00:00:57] Michelle Shapiro: and, and judging that story, [00:01:00] most 

[00:01:00] Liz Wolfe: of judging the story or profiting off that story, which is.

[00:01:04] Liz Wolfe: Just beyond anything I can even imagine. And so it doesn’t fit with the diet and life or the diet and health theme, but anything that we’re talking about bringing like a different perspective to, and, and bringing some kind of balanced perspective or a solution, which is to consume true crime that has been ethically produced and that type of thing.

[00:01:26] Liz Wolfe: So anytime I can do that, that belongs, that belongs on, on balanced bites in my. So 

[00:01:32] Michelle Shapiro: that’s, I think it’s about, I think you’re gearing up to have a co a real conversation about how we’re consuming content and incorporating it into our lives and how we’re applying compassion when we’re consuming content.

[00:01:44] Michelle Shapiro: So I think that’s gonna go across any conversation that you’re gonna be having. Yes. Especially serious as, oh, this experience. Oh my 

[00:01:52] Liz Wolfe: gosh. It was, I mean, it was something, and it was 20 years ago, and she’s, she’s been, she’s incredible. And one of the things she said was, we all wanna be more conscious consumers [00:02:00] so that.

[00:02:01] Liz Wolfe: That’s part of it. That’s part of being a more, not con conscious, con conscientious, per our conversation 10 minutes ago, not conscious consumer as in consumer who is not in a coma, not a, you know, consumer who is, who has brain function, but a consumer who is conscientious and thoughtful and aware of what we’re, you know, putting in our earbuds and yeah.

[00:02:21] Liz Wolfe: Then who’s profiting from it, which I just thought she’s just awesome. So I wanna do that, but I wanna put you and me way at the very. Everything coming out. 

[00:02:30] Michelle Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. I would love to be there. Yeah. I think that’s, you’re there really powerful. Yeah. I’d love to be there. We’re 

[00:02:37] Liz Wolfe: here right now, this, now I have an hour of, you know, buildup to the conversation that I could edit and put in there.

[00:02:43] Michelle Shapiro: Exactly. Please, please edit some of it, Liz. 

[00:02:47] Liz Wolfe: Some of it will be edited. A large your, your entire contribution will be edited out. Exactly. Just take it out half of mine other than when I was laughing at something that you said, we’ll just. Because I have, it’s just you [00:03:00] laughing. Exactly. Just me . So, which I kind of live for messages like that.

[00:03:04] Liz Wolfe: When people send me a voice message about something funny and they’re just losing their mind laughing so hard. I kind of love that. Yeah, it’s 

[00:03:10] Michelle Shapiro: wonderful. It’s a, it’s wonderful. 

[00:03:11] Liz Wolfe: Genuinely laughing. Oh yeah. Okay, well, I lost my piece of paper. 

[00:03:15] Michelle Shapiro: Hold on. Oh, beautiful piece of paper. By the way. Can you hear me? I 

[00:03:20] Liz Wolfe: can, can you hear me on the mic?

[00:03:22] Michelle Shapiro: I can hear you on the mic. Yeah. I just switched to the mic, that’s why. Okay, good. 

[00:03:25] Liz Wolfe: Okay. Yeah. Mic sounds good. Hold on. I’m gonna mute myself and clear my throat. 

[00:03:30] Michelle Shapiro: Yeah, cause now we’re really starting, this is serious now. 

[00:03:34] Liz Wolfe: No, it’s real. I don’t think that worked. I’ve been talking nonstop for four days. 

[00:03:39] Michelle Shapiro: No, Ivy’s gonna help you, 

[00:03:40] Liz Wolfe: huh?

[00:03:41] Liz Wolfe: No, I think I’m just gonna be a little scratchy. I don’t have my podcast voice. A little horse. It’s gonna be the, the intro’s gonna play and just be like, welcome to the New Balance Lights podcast. No, come on here. 

[00:03:51] Michelle Shapiro: It’s me, Liz. Oh my God. That’s 

[00:03:53] Liz Wolfe: me. See, seriously, I’m here. Um, I wanna just like, I wish we could bottle up whatever we were talking about [00:04:00] five minutes ago before I had to pee because I got an IV of fluids because of my , my weekend.

[00:04:07] Liz Wolfe: Um, and I wish I could just bottle that up and just, and start talking about it again, because I think we came up with some brilliant ideas of what we were gonna talk about today. Did we not? We 

[00:04:15] Michelle Shapiro: totally did. And I think that, again, I think leading the conversation with this idea, What, being conscious consumer, conscientious consumers and making sure that what we’re taking in is serving us and not overriding our own voice and our own experiences.

[00:04:34] Michelle Shapiro: I think that’s really, really important when it comes to nutrition and what we were talking about too, is that we’re noticing in just about every way in the nutrition world, things are divided. Two entirely different camps. So what we hopefully wanna do in our creative conversations and nuanced conversations is show the different layers in between so that things aren’t so stratified.

[00:04:58] Michelle Shapiro: Because generally what people are [00:05:00] seeing on social media when it comes to nutrition is also marketing materials, which are very reductive. Mm-hmm. . And they serve the practitioner who’s posting them much more than they serve the person listening. So our goal is to serve the people who are actually listening.

[00:05:13] Michelle Shapiro: I. 

[00:05:14] Liz Wolfe: Hello, people who are listening. Hi. Let’s serve you today. How may I serve you? Okay, so what we were talking about before, and I think I still might need some. , I think I still might need some education around this. I, as we , as we realized over the last hour or so of just chit-chatting, I am a little out of the loop on something.

[00:05:33] Liz Wolfe: So I hear things peripherally and of course I form my opinions. And of course I also don’t have time to research those opinions. So I’m trying to figure out that balance of how to really, and that balance for me is calling an experts, right? And you’re an expert. Um, and luckily you’re also my friend, so I can make you do this for me.

[00:05:50] Michelle Shapiro: Yes. Yes ma’am. So 

[00:05:52] Liz Wolfe: what I need to understand better, Is maybe the relationship, maybe the distinct characteristics and also [00:06:00] the relationship between, if there is one, a concept. Like we did this in this last pod, the last podcast that you and I recorded together. Yeah. Where we just kind of jumped in and I know we wanted to sort of delineate what we were talking about a little bit better today.

[00:06:14] Liz Wolfe: So I’m trying to figure out exactly how to do that, what we’re seeing. Online right now is a lot of talk about a few different concepts that don’t really jive with each other, all foods fit, and maybe we’ll define that. There’s also intuitive eating, right, and maybe we have some permutations of that. That might make more sense to us, or maybe we can define it and make it, help it make sense to other people.

[00:06:43] Liz Wolfe: But the reason we’re talking about this today, is because everybody is used to hearing about, right? Like paleo. I don’t know if we talk about paleo anymore. Carnivore, intermittent fasting, um, keto. We’re still talking keto. We’re still talking keto. That’s not going anywhere. [00:07:00] Vegan. And we’ll do that. We’re gonna, we’re gonna give those things.

[00:07:02] Liz Wolfe: The treatment as well at some point. But one of the things that I think a lot of people who just throw up their hands and they’re like, I’m not gonna just eat meat. I’m not gonna just eat meat and eggs, or, I’m not gonna cut out all meat, or I’m not gonna go Paley, I’m not gonna do keto. I’m not gonna cut out all carbs.

[00:07:18] Liz Wolfe: People come to these concepts of all foods fit, intuitive eating, understanding that they can have. Or may have access to, which isn’t quite the right word, but want to feel good about eating a broad range of foods that might include things that are quote unquote, not paleo or even quote unquote, not healthy.

[00:07:39] Liz Wolfe: Sure. And we open that door, but now I think we need to have a conversation about what these things actually mean and maybe where the sticky spots are so we can really just have a juicy conversation around them. So does that sound. Yeah, I think that’s, what did I just say? What, what did I, can you repeat back to me what I just said?

[00:07:58] Michelle Shapiro: Yes. Word for [00:08:00] word. Let’s play the recording back. Yeah. So I, I, I will also be a reflective voice and I will mirror what you said in my own language too, so people will get it twice. That’ll be fun, right? We’ll repeat ourselves other times. I’m kidding. Um, so what we’re seeing in the nutrition world right now is a landscape.

[00:08:18] Michelle Shapiro: Things feel very divisive and people feel they have to join a camp. The camps that we are seeing in the broadest of terms would be, let’s call it, in this episode, we’ll call it diet culture versus body positivity. Let’s say those are like the two big. Camps. And what I’m seeing, and I know you’re seeing too, Liz, is like in my client’s experience is that some people want to lose weight, but they also want to have a healthy relationship with food.

[00:08:45] Michelle Shapiro: So it seems almost like the quote unquote body positivity side has all of the virtuous merit. Merit, you know, Meritus side of them where that they are like, we are kind of nice and good to people [00:09:00] because. Um, believe that people should not have eating disorders, and we treat people fairly. And by the way, a lot of the principals body positivity would align with that very, very closely.

[00:09:09] Michelle Shapiro: And then the diet culture side of the equation or the camp people are viewing as very like, ugh, this is evil. They’re, they’re prey on us. And all this. There are so many different components to each group, and there’s. Levels of intensity and levels of, um, what I would call like coddling or, or applied discomfort on either side, where people don’t realize that not everybody positivity practitioner is an all foods fit type of practitioner.

[00:09:46] Michelle Shapiro: And not every functional dietician or none believe in diet culture. So it feels like there’s just a line drawn down the middle. And what I want is for people to get as close to the middle. Within what they also feel like will work for them. Mm-hmm. . [00:10:00] So if you’re, again, if. Urgently, someone is dealing with a disordered relationship with food.

[00:10:04] Michelle Shapiro: I’d say stay on the body positivity side of the equation and work something within that that’s still more middle ground. So I think people need to know there’s options to, hey, if you wanted to lose weight, but you also wanna maintain a healthy relationship with food that’s possible. You’re not like inherently a bad person for wanting to lose weight.

[00:10:22] Michelle Shapiro: You’re not instantly wrong or on the diet culture camp or self hating or anything like that. for wanting to lose weight. It’s really more about applying curiosity and asking those questions. And 

[00:10:32] Liz Wolfe: that’s the whole, I mean, that is the point of this podcast, and that’s what we wanna do in our time together, is just can we, can we just be curious?

[00:10:39] Liz Wolfe: Can we not write anything off just immediately? And can we not dismiss anything? So I think that’s what ends up happening a little bit, is that anything that even has a hint of diet, culture readiness. Mm-hmm. wanting to lose weight, wanting to change your body immediately becomes this [00:11:00] toxic. Diet culture, um, forced upon you because of the patriarchy, which this, I recognize how controversial.

[00:11:08] Liz Wolfe: It’s to say that because I do actually think that it is very important that we deconstruct the patriarchal aspects to society. The way society runs that is, that is influenced surreptitiously by the patriarchy or patriarchal concepts, but at the same time, And I’m, I think I said this in our last podcast, I was a, an English major, so my job in college was to argue.

[00:11:36] Liz Wolfe: Things that might make no sense, but I had to be able to argue them. So if I wanted to write a term paper on, you know, Rosaline or something, Shakespeare or something, you know, from Underworld, from Don Delillo’s book Underworld, which is one of my favorite books of all time, my job would be to use words to argue something.

[00:11:53] Liz Wolfe: Doesn’t matter whether it needed to be argued or whether society was desperate to hear that argument to better [00:12:00] itself. My job was just to argue it. Totally. So I, I understand that these. Can be argued that any kind of desire for weight loss or for a change in your body, it could certainly be argued that that is an offshoot of diet culture.

[00:12:15] Liz Wolfe: That it’s toxic, that it is destined to lead you down a path of disordered eating and mental health issues. But whenever something seems that. Whenever something is that loud and that pervasive in the culture, like you said, we’re seeing this on social media, it’s out there. Then I always think it’s time to turn a critical eye on it, and it’s time to talk about which aspects of that are actually unhealthy and which can fit in a more balanced, nuanced, and healthy 

[00:12:54] Michelle Shapiro: place.

[00:12:55] Michelle Shapiro: And in my most, Um, New York way, I’m an equal [00:13:00] opportunity offender, which means that I’ll come, I’ll come for both sides gladly. So it’s not no one, no one is safe, basically. And I, and I mean that to say if I notice that one side of the equation is radical and harming clients, I’m very protective of my clients.

[00:13:15] Michelle Shapiro: I’m very protective of conscientious consumers on social media. So I’m, I’m very willing to. The roof off on that. I’m, I’m super happy to do that. And again, it really, if you are approaching things from a compassionate perspective, probably things that could be perceived as diet culture are not gonna be as offensive because the intention behind them and the result and outcome are not gonna be as bad.

[00:13:38] Michelle Shapiro: It really, I, I mean, again, I would say that the extremes of both sides. Are equally as faulty, although it’s hard because, you know, if you were to ask someone in the nineties if like, about body positivity, would, they would’ve laughed in your face. Like, are you kidding? It was like the most horrible time in, in like body dysmorphic, like aggressive dieting culture.

[00:13:59] Michelle Shapiro: [00:14:00] So it was assumed that body positivity was like the non-virtuous group. Fat activists were the non-virtuous group cause they definitely existed. And the original body positivity movement I think was like in the 1950s when you think of the first wave of the body positivity, movement and fat activism movement.

[00:14:15] Michelle Shapiro: So, But now it’s kind of the other way around where the, the, the, the side that’s on the, the virtuous flip side of the coin is the body positivity group. And I could definitely argue that they are the more virtuous side and anything that comes close to making body changes is becoming not the non-virtuous side, which is really hard for people because.

[00:14:36] Michelle Shapiro: The whole goal of making nutrition changes is to remove the morality out of them. And what this is doing is adding a new lighter of morality that people have to grapple with. So I have clients literally coming to me and being like, I want to lose weight. And then the second they say it, they go, but I know I shouldn’t.

[00:14:53] Michelle Shapiro: And I’m like, Hey, you’re still saying the word should in that you’re still, it doesn’t matter if it’s coming from what is perceived [00:15:00] societally as the virtuous group, you’re. Playing on someone else’s playing field and you’re still not listening to yourself. 

[00:15:07] Liz Wolfe: And this fear, I see this everywhere. It does well, it might not be across all personality types, but you know, I love the Enneagram.

[00:15:14] Liz Wolfe: I love Oh yeah. I love all of these different ways of understanding ourselves. Again, if you can approach it with curiosity versus like, what shall I glom onto to define my identity to two very different things? Hundred percent. But there’s this undercurrent of. Who, who are you most afraid of running a foul Love.

[00:15:32] Liz Wolfe: So right now it feels like the people who are most demonized are the people who we’re, we’re talking extremes, right? The, the bodybuilders, the people who are. Fully concerned with physique as a proxy for health. Like those people who are on Instagram saying, you know, I’m trying to lose this here. Or look at my sculpted, whatever I work on 

[00:15:53] Michelle Shapiro: before and after.

[00:15:53] Michelle Shapiro: Pictures. Pictures, yes. Exactly. 

[00:15:55] Liz Wolfe: Before and after culture. They’re kind of the persona non grata right now, right? Like so [00:16:00] it’s the most cool. Yeah, they’re out. And so we can all kinda line up against that. And at the same time, so it feels good right to, there’s this, there’s this sort of, um, un this, this, uh, default community of people who have rejected that.

[00:16:16] Liz Wolfe: And that’s probably on the whole, for most people, a good thing, a good thing to have rejected. Sure. But at the same time, There’s this, this concept of virtue and morality that you brought up where, you know, we’ve heard the word virtue signaling, like virtue is an incredibly attractive and warm and fuzzy and popular attribute.

[00:16:41] Liz Wolfe: I mean, if somebody described me as virtuous, I would just think, I would just stretch out. I would stand a little bit taller, and it’s just so, such a powerful. Idea. So with that in mind, I think what people end up doing is kind of feeling like they have to choose [00:17:00] that side, that side of virtue, that side of morality.

[00:17:03] Liz Wolfe: Because, not because necessarily they’ve rejected the more diet culturey before and after stuff, but because they don’t want to run a foul of their new overlords, which are the body positivity overlords, and that’s not, that’s diet culture. These are the people that you don’t wanna run af foul of. And it’s a very emotional thing where it’s like, well, I’m in this group now and I don’t wanna get kicked out of the group because then where’s my identity?

[00:17:29] Michelle Shapiro: Which is a really, really scary thing because what we’re talking about when it, when it came to diets, I mean there’s like diets in New York that were like very borderline cult, and I’m not making that definition, but they were really like, it was, it was like a social club to wanna be doing those diets and things like that.

[00:17:45] Michelle Shapiro: And I’m sure that applies for everywhere. I’m just speaking to my own experience. I think that knowing. You’re not only gonna get out of this health, but you’re gonna get a social community. And a and a law of rules to live by is very [00:18:00] comforting for people when very unfortunately, you can’t really like give your power to someone else to make these decisions for you, even if they’re probably good people.

[00:18:10] Michelle Shapiro: I think most of the body parts, so many people are. On the whole, I would say, again, more compassionate as a, as a bunch, I, I would probably say that legitimately and I, yes, I can’t make that determination. This is a non-scientific sentence. This is just from feeling like I do actually feel that way. I do feel like it’s a more, it’s a knee-jerk reaction to an extreme non-compassionate approach.

[00:18:29] Michelle Shapiro: Yeah. So I do think it, it definitely has that. But I do know people who feel. Very lonely after realizing that they can’t be fully ingrained into that camp, which makes me like so upset. I just got actually emotional saying that because I know that loneliness is a driver of disease more than like, I think there’s a, there’s one study that showed that loneliness is equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes per day in ways of like that, the health outcomes.

[00:18:53] Michelle Shapiro: I will find that so we can put in the show notes too. I think about how’re we’re doing Show notes. . No, [00:19:00] no, we’re not. I’m just kidding. We’ll put it in there. No, 

[00:19:01] Liz Wolfe: we’re absolutely doing show notes. I always remember to do show notes. 

[00:19:05] Michelle Shapiro: Always. We do show links. Okay. This is the Balanced Bites podcast. And we do show notes here.

[00:19:10] Michelle Shapiro: We do. 

[00:19:11] Liz Wolfe: Okay. I don’t wanna run a foul of the people who do show notes, 

[00:19:15] Michelle Shapiro: but I think this, this idea for me that’s so upsetting. I don’t know. The loneliness thing really. I’m very, I get very emotional, I think of people being lonely. I like can’t tolerate it. Hmm. Um. It’s one discomfort I can’t handle for other people.

[00:19:27] Michelle Shapiro: It’s very hard for me to experience that for other people. And I think that the hardest and most painful part of this is that people are going into something that they know is societally good. They feel like they belong. They feel like, oh my God, I’m deprogrammed from this diet, culture Bs, which it was, and they should have been.

[00:19:45] Michelle Shapiro: And then to feel like you’re losing it all. I mean, it’s just so upsetting to me and people are really experiencing that. I have a lot of clients who have been to like practitioners, you know, health at every size, practitioners, the practitioners say to their face, you can’t feel this [00:20:00] way. You can’t want to lose weight.

[00:20:01] Michelle Shapiro: I mean, this happens so much that I can, I can really speak to this anecdotally that this has happened. I do not think every health at every size practitioner does that at all, but I have seen it frequently enough that it’s worth bringing up and to feel again, that sense of rejection. You know, you’re, you just did all this work to be a part of this team.

[00:20:18] Michelle Shapiro: Like, it’s so painful for people and I understand why, and it’s, our brains work in a way that they prefer these black and white, easy to understand, virtuous, good, bad solutions, but we just lose ourself in them so much, and that’s the problem. 

[00:20:32] Liz Wolfe: And I think so much of it comes down to dealing with the individual as an individual.

[00:20:37] Liz Wolfe: Yeah. Which, which is difficult, right? Because we don’t wanna extract people for group, from a group and say you’re on an island. But to a degree, we all have to be willing to have that go through that evaluative process about ourselves and figure out. Yeah. You know, maybe, you know, I’m 70% here and 25% here and whatever, however many percents we have left after that.

[00:20:57] Liz Wolfe: I’m not like a big math person, so we’ll just, [00:21:00] you know, and then 30 a mediocre, mediocre, oh, that was not acceptable in my sorority. Mediocrity was not acceptable. It’s, oh 

[00:21:07] Michelle Shapiro: my gosh, that was, I like the word mediocrity to the bare minimum. It’s, it’s called Efficiency baby. I 


[00:21:14] Liz Wolfe: it. . That’s good. This is literally what our government is based upon and it works.

[00:21:18] Liz Wolfe: Exactly. It’s kind of sometimes 

[00:21:20] Michelle Shapiro: never but, but the expectation, because it’s a capitalist society for us to be exceptional in them, to be mediocre. That’s the funny part. That’s the funny part. Oh, that’s funny. 

[00:21:28] Liz Wolfe: Yeah, so many. So anyway, we’re also gonna start, um, an economics and finance podcast. We’ll just, we’ll, of course, 

[00:21:33] Michelle Shapiro: because we have the qualifications to do that.

[00:21:35] Michelle Shapiro: Absolutely. Ab 

[00:21:36] Liz Wolfe: of course. Absolutely. They will let anyone do a podcast. I don’t know if people know this, but , 

[00:21:41] Michelle Shapiro: you guys shouldn’t even be listening to this right now. . Honestly, guys, 

[00:21:44] Liz Wolfe: go live your life. Seriously. Yeah. Um, so, you know what reminded, this, reminded me of a little bit this conversation, and you might have to give me a second to like unpack this analogy, but I am in.

[00:21:55] Liz Wolfe: The third way is like the way I’m always looking for, it’s like black, white, and what’s [00:22:00] the third way? What’s the shade of gray? So when it comes to school for children, this is gonna be my example. Go on. There’s conventional school, quote unquote conventional traditional school, which is very often demonized, but actually is the right place for a certain volume of children.

[00:22:15] Liz Wolfe: And a lot of the homeschool accounts that I follow are full on unschooling. Every single kid is not thriving in a regular, conventional, traditional school environment. Get them out and I actually to a point, Felt like some of these accounts were actually saying if your child is not crying on the way out to school, then there’s something like if your child is going to public school, for example, and they’re not crying every time they leave the house, something is wrong with them.

[00:22:44] Liz Wolfe: Their souls have been stolen by, you know, the, the evil so-and-sos of your public school, whatever. It’s, so you have these people who are agre, these homeschool folks, these unschool folks who are so probably so. [00:23:00] By something that happened to them in the conventional school model in the United States, that they are convinced that there’s not a single child that would not benefit from being taken out of it.

[00:23:10] Liz Wolfe: Then there are the people that are on the the other side and looking at that analogy. In my mind, I’m like, neither work for everyone. I understand where both of these sides are coming from, where these people who have constructed this, one of the most incredible education systems that has ever existed, that reaches children on a scale that never before in history has been seen.

[00:23:30] Liz Wolfe: It’s not perfect. It’s not perfect at all, but there’s something to it. That is at the very least worth looking at as we try to consistently be better. So my kid goes to a gray area school, my kid does, neither does unschool slash homeschool or um, traditional schooling. We found something different for her and there’s a whole bag of, you know, other stuff around that, around.

[00:23:52] Liz Wolfe: Not everybody can do that. I get that. But my point is we take a little from everywhere and try to be [00:24:00] comfortable maybe standing alone on certain parts. Until, and then, and you’ll find your people. Right? So it took me a while to find my people educationally. For my kid, I felt like I was alone on an island trying to figure something that didn’t even exist and that was uncomfortable.

[00:24:14] Liz Wolfe: I didn’t feel like I was part of a group. I didn’t feel like I was anchored anywhere. It took time. So I imagine you probably see that a little bit where people are most. Their, their first instinct is, what group do I belong to? What thing am I doing that other people has al have also identified themselves as doing where I can feel like I fit and how do I make that work for me?

[00:24:34] Liz Wolfe: It has to work for me, right? Because other people are doing it and it’s working for them. Well, how do we get people, I’m asking 10,000 ques 10,000 questions. Oh, it’s so powerful. Go. Yeah. People feeling like, number one, they’re okay acting as individuals on their own. Behalfs fighting for what is best for.

[00:24:53] Liz Wolfe: what they can tolerate mentally, emotionally, physically, what’s gonna make them better and is gonna make them better for a long time to come. Not one of those [00:25:00] things where, oh, I just wanna lose weight, I drop it, I gain it back in five years and I’m no better off physically, mentally, health-wise, socially, et cetera.

[00:25:08] Liz Wolfe: So bringing that thoughtful approach where people are able to stand on their own and hopefully eventually, Find that community around something a little bit more balanced. So again, what did I just 

[00:25:20] Michelle Shapiro: say? I think I know what you just said and I love what you just said to be honest with you. And it made me think of, first of all, my I, I have a one word answer to this, which is safety.

[00:25:28] Michelle Shapiro: People have to feel a sensation of safety to be able to make decisions that serve them best. When we make decisions based out off of fear, we make terrible decisions for ourselves. And the reason is because our brains in a state of preservation or a state of survival, do not. Really good decisions, right?

[00:25:46] Michelle Shapiro: We we’re not f future forecasting we’re like, how do I survive this bear that’s in front of me in the next five minutes? Your biology isn’t supported by logic at that point. You’re using your amygdala for your response completely at that point. Right. I think that this other idea [00:26:00] came up to me again and this beautiful analogy you use, which is like I think of, I mean, I’m like a huge rock and roll person.

[00:26:05] Michelle Shapiro: I think of like the, like 1950s being this like extreme conservative, traditional home. And then you have like the rock and roll movement, which is like the obvious knee jerk extreme reaction. And I think what came out of it is like the thing that like literally makes my life worthwhile, which is rock and roll music and the culture.

[00:26:24] Michelle Shapiro: And I’m always, I’m more, I’m more gonna be a person who’s like on the side of the freaks, you know? But again, what could have happened if you’re like, too on the fringe, you’re like gonna end up being a drug addict, it’s not gonna work. Like, you know, there’s, there’s definitely like, there’s definitely non-support.

[00:26:38] Michelle Shapiro: Components to, to any fringe. And I, what I really see in this body positivity movement, like you’re saying, is this knee jerk reaction to something that was totally wrong, which was the DI culture of the nineties and two thousands. It was totally wrong and terrible, and this is the knee jerk protective reaction.

[00:26:54] Michelle Shapiro: But who is going to be leading those movements and who’s going to be leading [00:27:00] and are they leading from a place of fear themselves because they are the people who are most likely the most harmed. From DI culture in the first place, which is exactly what you’re saying in the homeschooling group. So, and again, these are, these are concepts.

[00:27:12] Michelle Shapiro: We’re not saying go look at the leaders of the body positivity movement and target them not in the slightest bit. But the people who are most likely to be the most revolutionary are also gonna be the most radical. And potentially the people who have been the most harmed. So I would expect at the far fringe of any group would be people who are also leading possibly from a place of fear or trauma.

[00:27:33] Michelle Shapiro: I mean, which makes total sense. We need, we need something to inspire radical change in us, and thank God for these people because it was, I can’t say this enough, the DI culture, definitely the wrong one. The extreme Dia culture, it’s definitely wrong. It’s definitely extremely harmful and deadly. We needed those radicals.

[00:27:50] Michelle Shapiro: But again, now where do we settle in and where do we know, hey is, are we doing this cuz we’re freaking scared of what the harm that’s been happening that has happened to us? Are we doing this [00:28:00] out of a place of trauma or are we doing this from a really compassionate middle ground lens? You say gray area, I say middle ground.

[00:28:06] Michelle Shapiro: And I feel like for myself, and I’m sure for you too, I’ve had so many varied experiences in life. I, I went to a high school with 5,000 students. My high school had 5,000 students, like the different types, and in the most diverse high school in the entire world, by the way. Super cool. Um, in Queens, New York, and.

[00:28:23] Michelle Shapiro: I what the beauty of having so many varied experiences is, and varied traumas amazingly, is that you also are forced to view things from the middle ground. Because if I think of something where I’m like, oh, body positivity all in coddle, yes, I’m gonna coddle myself, I’m gonna love myself. There’s another part of me that’s seen the other side of it and it’s like, no, you’re gonna, you know, I, I, I lost a hundred pounds.

[00:28:44] Michelle Shapiro: I, I occupied a larger body when I was younger and I felt like crap. And I felt like crap losing weight too. So I was like, don’t go back there. So we. These trauma responses and fear voices coming from both sides, and then in the middle is actually your authentic voice. So that’s what I want people to make [00:29:00] sure they’re leading from is that authentic voice and not the fringes of trauma and fear.

[00:29:06] Liz Wolfe: Depending on your personality type, that can be a really difficult thing to discover. I know I’m an Enneagram six. Yeah. And I don’t even know how to live for myself sometimes. My, my basic desire, I can’t remember exactly what it is. . It’s very important to me that I have support and that I have backing. So oftentimes that looks like me looking at someone else and saying, what do you need from me?

[00:29:26] Liz Wolfe: Because it’s gonna make me feel good to, to fulfill expectations. Give, yeah, there’s a line there. There’s a line and, and not everybody is like that, but man, oh my gosh, so many things you just said are so, so good. And I was like cheering. I was, you know, the magic show we were talking about offline earlier.

[00:29:41] Liz Wolfe: There’s this one to go amazing. And so I was, Amazing. 

[00:29:47] Michelle Shapiro: See, this is interesting actually. I’m glad you brought the magic show up because Yeah, obviously both of, so I’m very rebellious against authority figures. I’m just like not, I’ve had to work for myself for a really long time. It’s just like not my vibe.

[00:29:59] Michelle Shapiro: I like need [00:30:00] to make decisions for myself and I need to know that I’m the only person who made those decisions. Yeah. So this is an easy and safe place for me cuz I don’t. Again, after experiencing this vast amount of trauma, hilariously, like you gotta laugh at all, but after experiencing that, you also, again, I’m, I’m forced to either crumble to the voices that have guided me into fear, or I’m forced to listen to my own voice.

[00:30:22] Michelle Shapiro: So I, I actually use tools with clients to help them access that voice. It is hard for people I use. A within scope version of IFS internal family systems to help clients identify like which voice is actually their voice. So a really good example would be like, if I heard Michelle, you’re amazing and you deserve a treat, I’d be like, who is that?

[00:30:43] Michelle Shapiro: That’s not my voice, you know? I would know. I get, I get really, I personify the voices with clients too. I’m like, give me an outfit. Give me a timeline, give me an age, give me a color that you feel when they come into your head, and just really start to, you know, listen to those different voices because it’ll be very obvious.

[00:30:59] Michelle Shapiro: [00:31:00] Again, if it’s like you, oh, all foods fit, like, it’s like, then my chronic Ill voice would be like, oh, but if you eat an Oreo, you’re gonna be sick for four days. Like, it would just, it would just immediately respond. And I know those different voice and there’s harsh voices that come from places of trauma.

[00:31:15] Michelle Shapiro: When those voices come up for people, I just ask them to accept and acknowledge. allow them to be there. Our voices just really wanna be heard. They’re like little kids trying to get our attention. The more we ignore them, the louder they are. Mm-hmm. , just let the voices come up and then you can start to decide and listen to who’s the real voice.

[00:31:33] Michelle Shapiro: You’ll know when it’s really you. I know people always say like, I don’t know if it’s really me. It’s like you do though. It feels like a punch in the stomach. It’s, that’s you and it’s, it is the voice. It could be suppressed, it could be walked away in a closet in your brain, but you will know. And generally I see people like from a spiritual perspective.

[00:31:48] Michelle Shapiro: they’ll associate like the color blue. When that voice comes up, it’s like a cooling feeling, a safe feeling. Um, versus like a voice that’s super diet culturey. Like I have one voice in my head that wears a leather jacket and smokes cigarettes and wears [00:32:00] red lipstick. And she’s like, are you gonna wear that?

[00:32:02] Michelle Shapiro: And I’m like, whoa, girl. Like, hey. And she’s red. Like I see red the second she comes out and I’m like, oh, there she is. And I don’t fight her or tell her to go away. I just say, hi, how are you doing? And I think that again, When I see things on social media also that are very polarizing either on the super diet culture perspective or the super body positivity perspective, the all foods fit crew, I would say, who is not really body positive.

[00:32:25] Michelle Shapiro: By the way, that’s a different, I don’t know what the heck that is, and we can talk about that. But yeah, I instantly feel inauthenticity within myself. And I want people also when they’re viewing things on social media to tap into what they’re actually feeling in their bodies when they’re seeing something, cuz that.

[00:32:40] Michelle Shapiro: Your intuition, let that guide you is how you’re somatically experiencing, taking in information. I think that’s so important to bring it back to what’s going on in your body when you’re taking that in. 

[00:32:50] Liz Wolfe: Well, it’s, I love backing up a little bit, what you said around, um, oh shoot, what did you say? Like, uh, the, the extremes and then the middle, the, the, [00:33:00] um.

[00:33:01] Liz Wolfe: Remind me of like a pendulum swift, like, you know, we’re, we’re in one place and the pendulum kind of has to swing all the way to the other side, and then eventually we kind of end up there, there in the middle. And insofar as that, like swing is what bring us, brings us back to balance, you know, like I, it’s necessary.

[00:33:18] Liz Wolfe: I understand that it is necessary. Yeah. And I sometimes say this about politics right now, and again, this is a one of, another, one of the things I say that’s oversimplified and probably controversial for that reason, we’re in a really. Complicated political time right now. Very, very polarized and all I can think of, the hope that I bring to that is that we are right now experiencing extreme polarization so that we will slowly make our way back into the middle because it’s not, it’s untenable.

[00:33:45] Liz Wolfe: It’s not. It can’t, and people are 

[00:33:47] Michelle Shapiro: not feeling good, Liz. People are not, people are feeling the most isolated and alone. I have to tell you, like in the past few years, because of the polarizing medical climate, nutritional climate, political climate, it just leaves [00:34:00] people feeling freaking lonely and sick.

[00:34:02] Michelle Shapiro: Mm-hmm. . Its just, it’s not, it can’t, the, the radicalization and the. Association with things being morally or virtuous or all these things. It really just doesn’t serve anyone, and I don’t, I know it’s serving the people who are marketing these things, cuz by the way, if I saw a post when I wasn’t feeling like I was accessing my authen authentic self, it said, you know that it’s unhealthy to restrict foods and you should eat whatever you want all the time.

[00:34:25] Michelle Shapiro: I’d be like, Sick. And I’m not saying that’s what intuitive eating or body positivity are at all. I’m saying that’s what all foods fit is like. There’s dieticians literally on Instagram I, I’ll say nutritionist cuz it’s not only dieticians and I’m a dietician, there’s dieticians on Instagram or nutritionists on Instagram who are literally, I’m eating Oreos or, and being like, You know, don’t, if you restrict this Oreo, you’re gonna binge this Oreo.

[00:34:48] Michelle Shapiro: And I’m like, that is so overly simplified and silly. Mm-hmm. . And it’s so to me, exclusive of my clients who have chronic illness. Cause I have serious gut issue clients, I have serious anxiety clients. I have [00:35:00] clients who are really trying to improve their health and are quite ill on a daily basis. And I can tell you that eating that or.

[00:35:06] Michelle Shapiro: Could cost ’em three days of their life. So it’s nice that you’re in this lovely club of healthy people who can just eat Oreos and not have an issue that’s not 70% of the US population, who’s it’s about to be 70% of the US population is suffering from some sort of chronic illness. And it’s certainly not having someone tap into their body and experience what they’re experiencing.

[00:35:25] Michelle Shapiro: So again, it’s, it’s also that when you’re the most on the fringe, again, either it’s, you’re probably the most. Trauma driven or fear driven, or you have never had an experience like the people in the middle, you know, like someone who’s suffering from chronic illness would literally laugh at that. Like, if, like my friends, you know, I have like a, a bunch of fun autoimmune stuff.

[00:35:45] Michelle Shapiro: If my friends ask me to go out on a Saturday night and it’s like an eight o’clock dinner, I’m like, are you, I’m, I’m gonna pay for that for six weeks. My circadian rhythm will never recover from that. I can’t digest food at 10:00 PM What are you talking about? ? But it’s like, you know, it’s, it’s like you, we do all these [00:36:00] things to live our lives.

[00:36:01] Michelle Shapiro: And again, the more you’ve experienced, the more you’re gonna fall in that middle, fall in that middle, and feel more and more isolated and more like that. That content that’s supposed to be inclusive. Oh, eat whatever you want. Cuz coddling is not inclusivity, that’s just coddling someone. That is becoming the most exclusive thing in the world, which is so again, I, Hmm.

[00:36:22] Michelle Shapiro: I get so weird about the loneliness thing. I hate when people feel alone. I hate that they’re looking for answers and they’re feeling excluded from this content that’s supposed to be for everyone. It’s supposed to be the most inclusive ever, and it’s truly not the most inclusive content. , 

[00:36:37] Liz Wolfe: I would argue that that side of this coin is a little bit more, it’s a more important conversation than what I’m about to bring up, but I’m gonna do it anyway cuz of my show.

[00:36:46] Liz Wolfe: Um, so Oh yeah. Hell yeah. So what I was thinking about the flip side of that is the people who, and I’m thinking from an influencer perspective, and so I’m gonna just take a second to draw this out. Years and years, [00:37:00] I went out to eat dinner with a bunch of Paleo influencers, and of course you did. Of course I did.

[00:37:07] Liz Wolfe: And a meat and cheese board came out and it had been ordered without bread, and bread came out on the Meat and cheese board. And the meat and cheese board wa, I mean, the. The, I mean, it was like we were backing away slowly from the table. I wasn’t, cause I was like, well, I’ll eat the bread. But most of us were like, mm mm no I can’t.

[00:37:24] Liz Wolfe: And, and someone literally picked it up and sent it back because the bread had touched something else. Now I believe this influencer. Was Celiac. I cannot remember. I know 

[00:37:33] Michelle Shapiro: not all of us were. Oh, okay. Then I feel bad for laughing. Okay, that makes sense. No, no, no, no, no. 

[00:37:37] Liz Wolfe: But, but I’m trying to remember now cuz it’s hazy.

[00:37:39] Liz Wolfe: It’s been a while because I’ve, you know, long since sort of, you know, we all kind of went the way we needed to go. I don’t have any severe health issues. I can eat pretty much anything and be mostly okay and if I don’t feel okay, I know how to come back from that. It’s usually pretty temporary. I can tell you for sure that there was a sort of decision that nobody could [00:38:00] tolerate gluten, that everybody needed to be on a paleo diet, and basically that everybody had something, right?

[00:38:06] Liz Wolfe: Celiac, gluten, non celiac, gluten sensitivity, you know, we gave it an official term back then. Gluten intolerance, cs of course. Hmm. Yeah. Uh, so, so speaking or thinking from the perspective of an influencer who is putting, who, who does have chronic illness, gluten intolerance, autoimmune disease, who is putting out content that is.

[00:38:30] Liz Wolfe: Representative of what quote unquote worked for them, whether it worked to help them heal their chronic illness, or it worked to make them look quote unquote better. They’re putting out content and people are following whose lives do not align, do not match up at all with the core problems or core motivations of that influencer.

[00:38:47] Liz Wolfe: So we’re all following people, right? We’re all following people who have had transformations, who have done amazing things with food. But I think the question that many of us don’t ask ourselves is, how does my. [00:39:00] Look in comparison to that person’s life. So there are people that don’t need to be worried about what they’re eating, who are being told they need to worry about what they’re eating by an influencer whose transformation looks at the surface analogous to what this person wants in their lives.

[00:39:17] Liz Wolfe: So, so and so lost weight and is happy and looks. Because they went on an autoimmune paleo protocol, eliminated gluten, never touch goitrogens, you know, et cetera, when really what they want is a transformation. They’re not thinking about, well, gosh, I act, I actually tolerate all of these different foods, and so here I am adapting all of the trappings of someone who is eating for chronic illness.

[00:39:45] Liz Wolfe: When I am actually perfectly capable of eating a broad spectrum of foods and being okay. So that being the flip side. 

[00:39:52] Michelle Shapiro: And you also know, and this is really important for people listening, The people marketing that information to you? [00:40:00] They, I, I both, you know, Liz and I are very acquainted with business coaches in the paleo community.

[00:40:05] Michelle Shapiro: They are intentionally poking pain points so they know exactly what transfer. They always say, don’t sell a program, sell a transformation. , they know exactly what your pain points are and they are targeting them in their, in their marketing materials. Again, it could be the best of practitioners, and these are practices that really made me pretty incongruent for a lot of business coaching programs 

[00:40:27] Liz Wolfe: because I’m like, oh, one of my favorite words, by the way, is incongruous.

[00:40:30] Liz Wolfe: Yes, exactly. 

[00:40:31] Michelle Shapiro: Oh, I’m so glad I use it then. But I, I think that it really made it hard for me, but I, I want people to understand like people are, you know, these practitioners or coaches are aware. Of what your pain points are and how to use them to get you to buy a product. So it is important for you to notice.

[00:40:48] Michelle Shapiro: Again, it’s really just comes to check in with how you’re feeling. And, and this other piece that you said that’s so important, Liz, is that a person who’s eating to heal a chronic disease? Cause [00:41:00] I’m a functional dietician, I actually believe in radical healing. I, I do believe you can reverse chronic conditions.

[00:41:04] Michelle Shapiro: Some of them, not all of them. Obviously, it’s individualized. I don’t believe that. I don’t believe in managing conditions. I believe in reversing them. I do believe it’s possible in a lot of cases. If the, again, what I see also is people who are have it has been specifically worked for them or it has specifically not worked for them.

[00:41:24] Michelle Shapiro: So then they say, Hey, because I didn’t do a paleo diet, I’m gonna be food freedom. Because you know, I know there’s like a couple dietician influencers who have like Crohn’s disease and they post like a lot about the surgeries they get for their Crohn’s disease and they post a lot about how you have to.

[00:41:39] Michelle Shapiro: Use medication management and stuff like that. And what is the big issue with someone using their own experience? Like you’ll never see it before and after picture on my freaking page. Like never for that reason. Ooh. 

[00:41:52] Liz Wolfe: Does like talk about that? Weave that in as you’re, as you’re talking, 

[00:41:54] Michelle Shapiro: I’m interested in that.

[00:41:56] Michelle Shapiro: I don’t use pain points to target clients, and every single post I [00:42:00] make, I make extremely nuanced. For that reason, the the way I lost weight was through completely disordered eating. So it would be, first of all, filthy. A filthy lie of me to say like, this is the way you should do it. It’s not how I feel.

[00:42:12] Michelle Shapiro: And also, but you could get 

[00:42:13] Liz Wolfe: so many followers, Michelle. 

[00:42:14] Michelle Shapiro: Oh, I know exactly. A hundred pound weight loss. That’s hot. That’s hot shit. A hundred pound weight loss. I’m aware of it, but I don’t, I don’t, again, first of all, the fact that other people do it, as I said before, I’m very rebellious, but, If you’re applying someone else’s experience, To your experience, and this I think has gotten better recently.

[00:42:33] Michelle Shapiro: I don’t think people are as much selling their own experience. People are kind of over that now where it’s like, yeah, I don’t know if it worked for you, if it’s gonna work for me, basically, but be very aware of where you are at versus where they were at when they started. Be very aware of the differences.

[00:42:48] Michelle Shapiro: I mean, again, when I’m talking about those all foods fit people, it’s either they’ve been through it and they’re responding from fear or it’s. Tiny, super thin, privileged people who are like, you can eat all the Oreos [00:43:00] you want. And I’m like, well, if weight bias exists in our society and it’s prohibitive for people to get jobs and have experiences cause it is prevalent and disgusting and exists, like you don’t have that fear or understanding of what that person’s going through.

[00:43:14] Michelle Shapiro: So you’re, you’re really not speaking from a compassionate place and being, again, exclusive So, Where you’re at. If you’re a person who’s experiencing chronic illness, you may not be in the same starting point as someone who has not. Even if it was someone who’s experiencing chronic illness, you can’t use the same nutrition infor interventions.

[00:43:34] Michelle Shapiro: For someone who’s focusing on optimization and someone who’s focusing on staying alive, it’s totally different. So know, are you in survival or are you in optimization? And know again, if a person went through chronic illness and reverse it would, they’re able to tolerate much, be, might be much more than someone who’s in the thick of it.

[00:43:51] Michelle Shapiro: And when people compare themselves, they get into this trap of hopelessness, where I know sometimes like hearing someone healed from chronic illness can be really helpful for [00:44:00] people, or it can be really harmful cause it can feel like, why not me then why can’t I do it? Why are they able to do it? So know where you’re at.

[00:44:07] Michelle Shapiro: Don’t compare yourself to someone else’s journey, but focus more on the, what the experience of the journey is like with a practitioner than the outcome, which is so, so freaking hard to do for people, but it’s, you have to focus on the journey cuz it doesn’t matter, you know, I use this example also like, People think weighing themselves causes weight loss.

[00:44:27] Michelle Shapiro: It’s like, oh, if I don’t weigh myself, I’m gaining weight. Yes, it causes an awareness around it. Maybe that might change your behaviors, but it’s about the actual journey and the behaviors you’re taking focus on. What is this journey gonna be like with this practitioner? What is the experience gonna be like?

[00:44:41] Michelle Shapiro: What is the empathy and the compassion coming from this and the understanding to, you know, sit across from a practitioner, someone who knows you, is the most healing experience you can ever have in your life. To sit across from someone who knows you and is there for you. You have mirror neurons firing off.

[00:44:56] Michelle Shapiro: I mean, there is physical, chemical healing aspect, so [00:45:00] you really want someone who will sit in the dirt with you. You don’t want someone who’s gonna be like, I, I did it myself. I, I wouldn’t, mm-hmm. , it wouldn’t be appealing to me, and I think that people are getting away from that, but know where you’re at.

[00:45:11] Michelle Shapiro: Know where they’ve been at before making that decision and know how it would feel to be in the journey with the practitioner. More than focusing on what outcome that practitioner’s gonna give you. Because functional nutrition’s not about the outcome. It’s, it’s honestly about the journey. It’s so important that you focus on the journey.

[00:45:26] Michelle Shapiro: I love the 

[00:45:27] Liz Wolfe: idea of somebody who no . It’s, but a lot is always good. And I’m so happy that I made you sign on for like three more episodes with me after this. Oh yeah. And then three more, and then three more. And then, you know, it’s like a perpetual, it’s a, a 

[00:45:39] Michelle Shapiro: perpetual, the exponential three. Exactly. Three to the third power episodes.

[00:45:43] Michelle Shapiro: Yes. So much math in this episode. 

[00:45:45] Liz Wolfe: Woo. I love the idea that, that you just said about someone that will sit in the dirt with you and, and talk to you and, and not be someone who on the other side. I envision this person on the one side, the diet culture side, just going be better. , I did it. You can do it. [00:46:00] No excuses.

[00:46:00] Liz Wolfe: Be better. Don’t 

[00:46:01] Michelle Shapiro: take it from the man. Right. It’s like, you know, don’t listen to the patriarchy. You’re listening to the patriarchy. So it’s like, it’s a strong message, but it’s still coming from a place of them dominating your own freaking brain space. That’s the important thing. Yes. Go ahead. Sorry. 

[00:46:14] Liz Wolfe: Yes. No, I love that.

[00:46:16] Liz Wolfe: And then the other side of it being, everything’s just fine as it is. Mm-hmm. Like, you’re in a, you’re, you’re in a good place. You just need to think of it as a good place, you know? And some of them compassionate, actually sit with you and compassionately evaluate where you are and it is back to that individual level again.

[00:46:36] Liz Wolfe: I was talking before about, you know, being willing to stand alone and feel lonely, but what you just said is exactly what people can do to feel not lonely in that, you know, detachment from those two polar opposite sides of the spectrum is actually sitting down with someone who’s sitting in the dirt with you and working through those individual things with you.

[00:46:58] Liz Wolfe: Asking the tough questions and [00:47:00] having the challenging conversations like, can I do this without completely destroying my mental health? Or is my mental health going to get is, is it gonna peak and then decline rapidly because I’ve decided I can eat anything I want. And then over time, that starts to mess with my neurotransmitters.

[00:47:14] Liz Wolfe: Like there’s just so, there’s so many layers to it. Um, 

[00:47:17] Michelle Shapiro: and I, I think the idea. Of a practitioner sitting in the dirt with you is pretty counter to modern medicine. It’s quite the opposite. You are going and you’re saying, here, take my power. Mm-hmm. fix me. Like I have some, I have a, a vast, I would say like, Maybe 25, 30 clients who I’ve worked with for over a hundred sessions, each client, so like to say, sit in the dirt.

[00:47:41] Michelle Shapiro: Like we’re, we’re, we’re underground together. You know, like this, it, it makes, there’s such a magic in sitting across from someone who wants to know you. I don’t go into a session and I’m like, we’re gonna do intuitive eating today, or we’re gonna do, you know, we’re gonna talk about the principles of body positivity.

[00:47:56] Michelle Shapiro: That’s the other thing too, when you’re so far in the concept, you’re like, it’s, it’s so much less [00:48:00] about the concept, more about the concept than it’s about the individual, but it’s like, No, I don’t. I, I would, if, if a keto diet worked for one of my clients and at the same time they wanted to improve their relationship with food.

[00:48:11] Michelle Shapiro: If we had to make it work and it was important to them, I’d find a way to make it work. Maybe we fail horribly and it, it doesn’t work out. I’ll still be there in the dirt with them after like, but it’s that experience again of just sitting across from a person who knows you, is irreplaceable. And there are a lot of really good practitioners who are willing to do that.

[00:48:28] Michelle Shapiro: And I, and I, I always thought, I was like, oh my God, functional nutrition is the answer to the compassionate problem of diet culture. And it’s an answer to the. Like the scientific problem of chronic illness. I always, I always felt that, but what I’m seeing now is less people willing to sit in the dirt, and it’s so, it’s an uncomfortable man.

[00:48:47] Michelle Shapiro: Like I, I love my clients with all my heart. Do I want them to be uncomfortable? No, but I have to sit in it with them. It’s like, it’s harder as a practitioner, trust me. I’d rather be like, take these little medications. I’m [00:49:00] not, and I can’t prescribe medications. I’m not a medical doctor, but take these supplements and you’re all good, but.

[00:49:04] Michelle Shapiro: it’s actually, so against the spirit of functional nutrition, which people don’t understand, is it’s not functional. Nutrition’s not ordering a test. It’s about those moments where a person can be so safe with you, because if they can start accessing themselves, that is, that is the spirit of healing and the spirit of functional nutrition.

[00:49:24] Michelle Shapiro: And if you throw supplements at someone but you don’t know, That’s not healing. They’re not gonna heal. That’s the difference is it has to come from the person themselves. So really what even good motivational interviewing is, is you’re pulling what they need from them. It’s not about, the practitioner doesn’t give the information.

[00:49:42] Michelle Shapiro: You’re getting it from the client who already freaking knows it. You’re already freaking know this, I promise you. You don’t need to learn anything on an Instagram thing. You need to learn how to listen to yourself. That’s the difference. Oh, 

[00:49:53] Liz Wolfe: I love that. And I, I keep thinking it’s that difference between, Lining up against [00:50:00] something which can feel really powerful, but in the end can really take away your power and just getting aligned with yourself.

[00:50:08] Michelle Shapiro: I love that idea. And I mean we want, and I want people to have community and I want people to feel connected again. This is the third time mentioning, again, very sad when I think of people being lonely, that’s very hard for me to set in that discomfort with people for sure. And hopefully those sessions, I can create more comfort in the safety of tho of those sessions.

[00:50:23] Michelle Shapiro: But, People, it is natural as humans, we we’re tribal. Right? Think about it. If we were cave woman, I mean this is something, you’ve obviously had this conversation, Ms. Paleo, Ms. Ex, paleo, basically. Yep. You’ve of course had this conversation where we’re, we are tribal beings. If you, if we evolutionarily could not fit into a tribe, we were gonna die because animals were going to attack us and predators would get to us.

[00:50:48] Michelle Shapiro: So the, the feeling of wanting to belong somewhere. Is really important, but don’t belong to a school of thought. Belong to compassionate people. That’s what we wanna avoid. Do [00:51:00] not belong to what they’re thinking about. An idea, the cerebral part belong to the spirit and connection of people, which is, I think Liz, like how we really connected to, cuz we’re just, it’s not like we cared about what diet ideology either one of us followed or anything like that.

[00:51:14] Michelle Shapiro: It’s just we’re willing to. And be whoever the heck we both are, which is quite similar to each other 

[00:51:21] Liz Wolfe: obviously. Weird at camp and second grade, I got a quality award at the end of camp and my quality was compassion. 

[00:51:28] Michelle Shapiro: So I, I’ve carried not surprised by that at all. That is the least shocking thing I’ve ever heard.

[00:51:33] Michelle Shapiro: Cause you’re very compassionate. 

[00:51:35] Liz Wolfe: Carry that with me my whole life. All right, so let’s wrap that up. Because I’ve gotta go get the little one from cdo and you have things to do as well. Thank you so much. We’re gonna be back with you like several more 

[00:51:47] Michelle Shapiro: times. Yeah. I’ll see you a million more times. I’ll see you three a million more times to the third.

[00:51:52] Michelle Shapiro: Whatever. See, we’re terrible at math. Whatever. Exponential. Stop. 

[00:51:55] Liz Wolfe: Yes, that’s, that’s from our economics podcast. Intuitive. 

[00:51:59] Michelle Shapiro: [00:52:00] And this is Economics with Liz and Michelle. Thank you for tuning in. Supply and demand. 

[00:52:05] Liz Wolfe: Oh, okay, friend. Thank you so much and we’ll talk to you again soon. Thank you so 

[00:52:10] Michelle Shapiro: much. All right, we’re good.[00:52:13] Michelle Shapiro: That was, see, that was killer.

Thanks for listening to the new Balanced Bites Podcast! Before you shut down your podcast app, PLEASE take a moment to subscribe and leave a review! It’s a small thing you can do that I appreciate more than you can imagine! And speaking of what we can do for each other, if YOU have a question you’d like to have tackled on this podcast or an interview you’d like to hear, submit the details at Let’s keep unpacking, unraveling, contextualizing and nuance-ing the important questions together so we can be empowered, informed, active participants in our own health and happiness.

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