Liz Talks Podcast, Episode 14: you’re not thinking!

Liz talks about thinking, trying on shoes, and sitting in the dark without a phone.

TRANSCRIPT

Liz Talks Episode 14

This is episode 14, topic: You’re not thinking! 

In case you missed it, episode 13 was an ask me anything episode, where I answered questions about:

  • Red light
  • Beautycounter 
  • CBD
  • My husband 
  • Body and skin care
  • A hypothetical third birth scenario
  • Motherhood anxiety 
  • Weight struggles

Today, I’ll talk about something I’ve been thinking a lot about. The just pure unadulterated act of thinking. Now this isn’t political; although I am going to mention at least one thing that is political here, more towards the end, I think. It isn’t sarcasm, and there is no hidden agenda. I really just want to have a collective pondering on straight up thinking.:

  • The ways we do it.
  • How we avoid it. 
  • The pain and growth associated with it. 
  • And the fact that most of us; not just the people we don’t like, but us too, are really not thinking. 

Before we begin, a quick note. I was going to open the door to podcast sponsorships after another few months of episodes and statistics. But as I’ve had a few inquiries come through, I thought I’d just make a quick statement here. I am absolutely interested in being supported by a company I connect with, and authentically trust. I cannot wait to find a company that cares about me, and my audience, enough to support our little operation here. And whoever that ends up being will have to be really, really special. Because this isn’t some crazy podcast world juggernaut. I’m not wildly political, or wildly funny, or wildly anything. I’m just me, trying to be useful and provide something good for my people. 

So if that’s you; if that’s your brand and that sounds good, you can always reach out to me at [email protected], and we can chat. I like to sort of pull from within rather than going outside and looking for people that don’t necessarily know me and know my listenership and kind of know what we’re trying to do here. So, let me know. 

On to the show! 

Ok, let’s talk about thinking. I think; haha. Most of us would agree that in general, humans don’t actually spend all that much time thinking. Of course, we all think this about our political and ideological adversaries. We think; gah, these people do not think! But how often do we turn the microscope on ourselves and really assess how much time and effort we actually devote to thinking. Maybe we think we think. But I know I often confuse the times when I’m just quiet; like not talking, for times when I’m actually actively thinking. It’s like the difference between walking to the other side of the house and doing a workout, right? An Athletic Mom workout. It’s two totally different things.

So, a lot of times, we think we’re thinking. But what we’re really doing is just not speaking. So I’m thinking of all of this in terms of a flow. So visualize a flow coming into the brain that could be listening, for example. And then visualize a flow going out. That would be maybe speaking or sharing or teaching. Now, visualize a swirl of processing within the brain. How often do we really devote time to that processing and turning over of information within the brain? The processing part. 

I think usually we sort of allow that to happen unconsciously as we go about our day. If we’re thinking on something, we’ll just allow it to sit and see if anything bubbles up as we do other things. And I think that’s useful. Maybe we could call that unconscious processing. And I think a lot of good does come from that. But actually intentionally sitting down to think, and nothing else. Maybe we call that aware processing. Haha. Probably that happens much less often. 

And I think often times there’s a real imbalance between what you’re taking in; the whole processing – aware processing thing notwithstanding, often times I think there’s a real imbalance on an individual level for many of us between what we’re taking in and how much we’re putting out. There are times when I feel like I’m just trying to out, out, out. Right? Information, and thoughts, and reaching people. Podcasts, social media, blogging. All of that stuff; that outward energy. And there’s a real imbalance between what I’m sending out and what I’m bringing in. While I do think I’m probably taking in way too much useless information most of the time, I’m often not bringing in the quality of information that’s proportionate to the quality of information that I want to put out there. So that’s something I have to be aware of, as well.

 But as far as the processing thing; I think the imbalance there is probably even more disproportionate for many of us. And I think there are times we think we’re in that aware processing phase, but we’re actually doing things where information is coming in, even when we’re not thinking about it that way. So, I’ll give a couple of examples. 

One would be learning in school. So being taught. We talk about going to school to think and learn to think. But we’re actually learning. Thinking is what would happen when you’re not actively being taught. Or practicing. Or exercising your knowledge. And this got me thinking; I feel like schools should institute a straight up thinking time. That would be interesting; right? If kids actually had to just sit there and think. 

And we use this as a punishment sometimes. Which is so interesting to me, and I never thought about it in this context before. We don’t do time outs at our house, for a couple of different reasons. But the idea of time out where it’s like; go sit and think. I actually think there’s something really interesting about the idea of someone sitting and thinking. But using it as a punishment might actually sour many of us on the idea of just being contemplative way before we’re old enough to intellectualize it. So I’m just visualizing 5-year-old Liz sitting there and resenting this idea of sitting and thinking. 

But the entire idea of it; it’s not a bad one. To sit and reflect, and think. There are other ways that you can sort of construct that for your kids. I know there are parenting experts out there who talk about what constructing reflection areas, or calm areas or whatever it is. Which I think would probably be a little bit of a derivative of that. But it’s an interesting concept. 

So another think would be reading. Whether that be a book, an article, a blog, a social media post. It could be anything. The full spectrum, from academic papers to smut and garbage. Whether it’s in a reading chair or on the toilet; it doesn’t matter. 

Some of that reading leaves us better than the other types. But it feeds us stuff to think about in that moment. So it’s not this self-determined act of pondering or turning something over. It’s still information coming in. And I think that information coming in; when that valve is open, the processing and percolating space is not available. 

Another one would be listening. I think many of us probably confuse things like listening to podcasts for actually thinking. We might be taking in interesting information, but are we really, really turning it over and thinking about it? We have a quiet moment. We want to be productive, so we listen to a news or current event podcast. Or we just like to have something in our ears while we’re cleaning; whatever it is. 

Listening might inspire some thoughtful reflection after the fact. But usually, it’s short-lived, it’s highly contextual. And often, I think we’re sort of passively attached to the biases of whatever information it is that we’re consuming. So I also don’t think this form of listening is really the same as thinking. 

So, in learning, reading, or listening, we actually have this imperative to devote some mental space to the processing of that information. And often, I think instead of processing what we’ve taken in, we actually decide to take in more. Like; wow, that political topic was interesting. Let me go learn more. Or, that Tweet I read was really compelling; let me go look at all the follow-up Tweets and see what everybody else is saying, so I can assemble as much information as possible, so I can know as much about this topic as I possibly can. 

And then we’re just in this rabbit hole that’s just being filled with input, rather than taking the time to really, again, this phrase; turn over the information we already have in an active aware way. And this can only happen in a pause. And I think that’s where I’m going with this. The pause. 

So this leads me to why I even go to thinking about this in the first place. Here’s sort of where it all came from. So there was a time {laughs} after the newborn period was over where I swear to you baby was waking up like 10 times a night. And a little tangent here; what actually was going on, and we didn’t realize it was she had this lingering sort of subclinical ear infection. So I know this now; she got over a cold, and then she was still waking up multiple, multiple times a night, so upset. She never had a fever. She never tugged at her ear. She never showed any symptoms of anything being wrong. And my first was not an ear infection kid. She’s never had an ear infection. So I just had no idea what we were dealing with. I thought that this cold just set her back, and she was in a sleep regression.

But I finally was like; ok. This is ridiculous. So I took her to the pediatrician. I had her check her up and down. And we discovered that she had just a lingering ear infection. And once we figured that out; thank goodness! A lot of the sleep stuff sort of settled itself back out. So I’m very thankful for that. But during that time when she was waking up a ton, and I was going in, picking her up, and nursing her back to sleep; I was spending a lot of time really in thought. 

And part of the reason for that is because although I’ve been flexible about a lot of things in the health and wellness journey. I’m flexible about food. I’m flexible about working out. I’m flexible about most of the things that people say you “need” to do to be well. And a good portion of that is because I think probably the biggest culprit in people’s health issues is stress; or, many people’s health issues is stress. So to me it is just not worth feeling guilty, compounding a less than optimal choice with stressing about it. 

So I’m flexible on a lot of things. But the one thing I’ve been pretty consistent about is having my babies sleep in total darkness. It was never a problem with my first. She actually slept in total darkness until very recently. She’s almost 7 now, and we have these blackout shades up on her window. So her windows are blacked out at night. Door is closed, all of that. She’s never had a problem with it. Until recently. She’s gotten just curious about what’s beyond those shades? So she’ll go in and she’ll open them up at night and sleep with them open. And that’s fine; she still sleeps great. 

But the baby’s room has been totally blacked out. And when I go in, I don’t turn on a light. When I go in, I have the whole thing mapped out. I can walk to the crib, pick her up, get to the chair, sit down, do all the things I need to do in complete darkness. 

So I would never bring my phone in. I was very stuck to this idea about we don’t need any light; not even red light. Nothing, particularly not phone light. Because I knew if I go in, the phone light might wake up the baby. The phone like would certainly take me out of any semblance of ability to go back to sleep that I had remaining after getting up that many times at night. There are times when I need to wake up in the morning, I’ll stare at my phone for a few minutes, because it will really activate those awake hormones. Awake neurotransmitters. 

So basically, long story short, I didn’t want to be staring at my phone. Even when I was up multiple times a night nursing the baby. So very stubborn about that. 

So the point is, I would go in to get her in the blackout dark. No phone. So all I had to do was sit there and think. And I actually started looking forward to it as an opportunity to problem solve. So instead of picking up a rock and saying, “It’s a rock,” and moving on, I was picking up the rock, and inspecting it, and turning it over. This is a metaphorical rock. Turning it over like I had never seen a rock before. And there were times I was in there for an hour, literally, just thinking in the dark.

And it was different from lying awake in my own bed, unable to sleep. There’s a stimulus at work there, when you can’t sleep, that isn’t conducive to just thinking, I don’t think. When you can’t sleep, there’s that adrenaline. That anxiety. That thing that you’re supposed to be doing. But when you’re literally, physically sitting up, rocking a baby in the pitch darkness, you can surrender to the thinking. 

And this is also why I would get so irritated when my husband would pop his earbuds in when went in to do a night waking. He would put his earbuds in, and go in. He tended to listen to a podcast while he sat there and rocked with her. I would get very self-righteous about thinking there for a while, apparently. Like; meh. Can’t you just go in there and sit and quietly think. Harrumph, meh heh. 

Anyway. All of this is also distinct from meditation and mindfulness. Which are also amazing, amazing things. But they’re different. Meditation is sort of the objective observation of your thoughts. The dipping in and out of conscious thought. Whatever those thoughts may be.

I did the transcendental meditation training; so that’s the sort of meditation that I’m familiar with. And mindfulness is, what? The management of your thoughts. The quieting of your thoughts. And often, those thoughts in need of quieting are the ones that are swirling and twirling in that sort of anxiety loop. There is not so much the same type of processing. There’s processing that occurs as a result of mindfulness and meditation, of course. And a ton of other physiological benefits, too. But they’re not the same as literally sitting down to actively think. 

So, in pondering the act of thinking. Sitting up, in the dark, choosing to think. To ponder and problem solve with only the information at hand, and no possibility of additional inputs, that also got me thinking of other ways to turn over this rock. So maybe sitting up in the dark and problem solving is one new and interesting way to think that we don’t typically do. So what are others? 

And this is where it gets fun for me. Maybe; I don’t know. I think maybe the Enneagram 6 in me is like; I could go here, but maybe one person won’t like it, so maybe I won’t. Hmm. But this might possibly get a little bit political. 

Ok, this might feel interesting, or it might feel even dangerous or crazy. And either way, this is an exercise, right? For that lump that’s three feet above our asses. Which is a movie quote, by the way. Sorry if there are kids in your car. This is about using your brain in different ways. And that has to be a good thing, right? It’s like exercise. There are certain things we’d rather not do. For me, that would be like dead hangs. But in general, the act of doing them has benefits as long as we don’t completely lose sight of every other thing that we need to do to keep ourselves in good shape. I think I put a long tail on that kite. 

Nevertheless, here’s what I came up with. Fearless thought experiment number one; sitting up in the dark truly inhabiting a different way of thinking. Without judgement. With nothing at stake but a deeper understanding. And I’ll get more into that in a second with an example. But I think the first thing I need to talk about is the fact that people fear this getting acquainted with the “other side”. Because in humanizing or fostering understanding, the worry is that someone will be converted. Right? From the right side to the wrong side. And maybe that’s true. 

But another truth is you can’t truly dismantle an argument until you’ve truly inhabited it. And this is something I learned in middle school debate. If you’re trying to tell someone you understand them, but you really actually don’t, you will lose. They’ll smell a rat a mile away. 

So what we usually really mean, I think, when we say we understand someone when we’re talking about the juxtaposition between, say, right and wrong. Some kind of imperative or thought or feeling or opinion that we hold dear, where there is very much a polar; I’m right, they’re wrong, type of situation. 

What we usually really mean when we say we understand someone is that we know the bullet points of what they think, and can repeat them back to them. What we don’t mean is that we took the time to inhabit their perspective. To try it on, and live in it. 

Trying on; this is a huge pet peeve of mine. Or something that I feel like I didn’t understand for a long time. And I’ve got to say; figuring this out and really thinking about this has shut me up with good reason on multiple occasions in the last couple of years. Walking a mile in someone’s shoes; we’re not talking about sitting down, trying the shoes on, and kicking them off and telling them they’re the worst shoes you’ve ever worn and here’s why. The saying is, walk a mile in someone else’s shoes. Because it’s about inhabiting the perspective. Truly coming to understand in a visceral way. 

So I guess I’ll give an example now. And I’ll give a trigger warning here. I’m about to reference abortion. So if this is problematic for you, you can totally skip this part. Or take a few minutes to just prepare yourself for the conversation. I don’t go really into it, or I’m not giving any personal anecdotes or anything like that. But if you need to take a moment, please do. Just give it a pause. Or if it’s not the right time for you to listen to this, if you’ve got people in the car that are not ready for the conversation, you don’t have to listen to it now. No problem.

But if you’re sticking with me; please stick with me for real on this. Because it will come together at the end. 

Alright. So, in college. I worked at a pro-choice political action committee doing opposition research. This PAC; political action committee is PAC. This PAC funded people like Hilary Clinton, Debbie Stabenow. This was, I mean, 15 years ago. I mean, I was a door opener at a fundraiser where I’m pretty sure I took Nancy Pelosi’s coat, like, right after she was elected minority whip. Not 100% sure, but I’m pretty sure. Ridiculously amazing house in Washington D.C. 

So I was all in at this political action committee, doing opposition research. So the political action committee, again, was pro-choice. Very dedicated to electing pro-choice women to federal office, to local office, all over the country. It was a really cool organization, and it was neat to work there with mostly women, and just see how things worked.

And I was coming, of course, as a very progressive college student. This was the right place for me. And, P.S., it was a paid internship, and those were hard to come by. So that was great, too. So what I was doing was basically doing opposition research. Seeing what the other side was saying, doing, how they were politically active, but how they were also doing grassroots activism. That type of thing.

So everything that I saw was, you know; I don’t know. I just sort of decided that the other side was looney. You know? I was never really interested in their perspective. The perspective of the other side. But in those moments, in doing the opposition research, I was just like; man, these people are crazy! And it was a really interesting time. Because I was taking in all of this information. Processing it through a very particular lens. 

And by the way, please don’t try to read in on how I feel about the abortion issue now. That’s not the point. There’s a reason I don’t talk about these things, mostly, as far as how I feel about one thing or the other. And half the time, I couldn’t tell you how I felt on something unless I talked about it for an hour. Because I think everything has context and nuance. 

Anyway. Cue me, deep down inside, worrying about who I’ve already alienated with this trail of crumbs. But I’m going to keep going with it. Anyway. 

So, this idea of being on kind of one side of things, and looking at the other side through a very particular lens. Having absolutely no interest in why they were doing what they were doing. Why they thought what they thought. Where they came from. And just deciding that they were totally crazy people. That was my perspective then. 

But as things had become more and more contentious in the world. And as I’ve grown up. And as I’ve changed the way I process information, I will say that some of that thinking I did in the dark with my baby involved truly asking questions like; and I would apply these questions to that very situation where I was very much looking at it from one perspective, with no interest in the origins, context, nuance, ideas, people, lives, experiences, stories behind the other side; behind the other perspectives. 

What I needed to do, and the thought experiment that I needed to carry out then, and that I need to continue carrying out now, are sitting and asking questions like; what are the sacred values of each side? How do they inform their arguments? Why, even if I disagree, might they also in some context or another make sense? What holes can we poke in the arguments? What if we’re both right in some way, and there’s no one answer? Is there a third way? 

That third way is such a big thing for me. And I talked about this in an entirely different context in my sleep training episodes of the podcast; I think it was 11 and 12. I’m not sure; I think 11 and 12. But where I talked about; I didn’t think it was just; you leave your baby to cry, or you never let your baby cry. I was like; there has to be a third way. And I was relentless until I found it. 

The other questions I would ask would be; what are missing by being entrenched in the you versus me? How might the broad expanse of human experiences affect someone’s perspective? How much of this spectrum is actually black and white; and how much of it is actually shades of gray? And I was visualizing, sitting there in the dark. And this is in reference to what I’m talking about with abortion, and kind of reflecting on my experiences in college with that very sort of stark and easy example of a new way of thinking about something that is very polarizing. But I was really just imaging that spectrum. Where one side is black and the other side is white and in the middle are shades of gray.

And I think what I always thought about was maybe, you know, two-thirds of it is actually black and two-thirds is white and then that middle third is gray. But now the way I look at is that very tiny first sliver of one end of the spectrum is black, and a little tiny sliver of white on the other end, and 98% of is actually some shade of gray. 

And I don’t know why; again, this is another example of trying on the shoe versus actually walking in it. I could have said very easily, very casually; yeah, of course there are shades of gray. Of course most of this is gray. But really, really inhabiting that and realizing the nature and the texture behind those shades of gray was a really, really interesting revelation for me. 

So, this isn’t just suspending judgement and perspective in values. Which is, I would argue, actually an important thing to do. I want to make a distinction here. I’m not saying abandon your judgement and perspective and values. I’m saying suspend them in favor of looking through a totally neutral lens for a moment. I know it feels dangerous. But think of it this way; your morals, your ethics, are like breathing. You need to breathe. I would never expect you not to breath. But at times, the functional ability to hold your breath is called for. It’s momentary, but it will often get you from point A to point B. 

In this case, for example, it might bridge a gap in difficult conversations. If you really do want to understand. It might actually help you do that. And this is something I need to cultivate now more than ever. And this is why I’ve been turning this over in my head so much, ever since those middle of the night, extended blackout thinking sessions that I had.

And I didn’t just think about world issues and things like this. I also problem solved things in my business, and things in my marriage, and things in my relationships. Planned what I was going to do the next day. But I also was looking at big questions. 

And it’s interesting; because I was already a bag of contradictions. I’m a college progressive, who married military, who never identified as conservative but who was suddenly surrounded by conservatives. And a person who would have said they were generally in favor of government “doing something” about, you know, fill in the blank, who was suddenly introduced to more libertarian, little “L”, ideals through the farmers I met as a result of getting involved in the food freedom movement. And this was way back when our biggest problem in the world was the government shutting down raw milk producers. {laughs} 

So I don’t fit in a box. And I’ve also sort of actively refused to choose a box, when I think the prevailing forces sort of say; “Ok. You don’t have to agree, but you do have to choose your bucket. You have to pick your side. You have to figure out what you agree with most.” I digress. That’s about as political as I’d like to get today. 

But the point is; even the craziest, most difficult topics are ripe for a think in the dark. So, ok. I continue to try to sort of deconstruct the flow of information in my life. Like, how much am I taking in, whether just garbage social media.

Which, by the way, the other day; I love you, my friend who sent this to me. There was some reel that someone sent to me that was like these two kids that heard that children eat free at IHOP, and they somehow cut a hole in the stroller, and one of the guys is in a stroller with a blanket over his body, and his face is sticking out and he’s got a pacifier in his mouth. He’s probably 17, or 22, or whatever. They’re trying to get a free meal for the baby in the stroller, and filming the whole thing. And I’m like; oh my god. This is why I will never figure out the internet. This is why I will never be a massively successful influencer, because I do not understand what is happening on the internet right now, and why people are watching {laughs} what they’re watching. But that’s ok.

Anyway; how much am I taking in? Garbage social media, like the IHOP baby thing. Or studies on magnesium supplementation and exercise. Or podcasts about crypto. So how much am I taking in? And how much am I sending out? Which would be here, this podcast, and everything I do for my work. And how much am I actually taking the time to just turn over information? Adding nothing additional, but simply really sitting with my thoughts. Not doodling. Not with a podcast in the background. Not cleaning. But actually sitting and thinking. 

And is this a necessary thing to do? I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe I got this really interesting lesson in thinking when I had to sit in the dark with a baby, but there are other more enjoyable ways to apply that lesson. Maybe. I’ll talk about that in just a second. But I imagine people long ago, like 1992, did things like this. They sat and thought. Certainly before social media, we took more opportunities to do that, right? Maybe we had no other choice. 

And long, long ago there had to have been moments like that. I’m not saying sitting in the dark thinking, but simply pondering. A lot of great literature comes out of that, right? 

So I do want to add another layer here, and suggest that there’s probably one way to really make this happen while also doing something good for your body and not just sitting in the dark for hours, and that is walking. I do know that the idea of walking and thinking and their connection is not new. This has been extensively studied and written about in articles and books from every angle. And I think the summary is; walking has other benefits, in addition to the physical. For example, beholding your surroundings with an attitude of wonder improves mood. There’s also evidence that walking actually boosts cognitive function more than even something like dancing. Walking also connects us to our surroundings. It’s incredible for problem solving. Maybe even more so than sitting in the dark; I don’t know. Taking a walk can literally ramp up your problem solving capacity, if you let it. 

Now, if you’re listening to a podcast or sort of zoning out; which I think we take so many moments in life, like to listen to podcasts. Which may or may not be zoning out. But there are lots of ways we sort of check out of the moment, and are not present. But I imagine that; I don’t know, you might have to pick and choose. But for those who aren’t being forced to wake up and sit awake in the dark in the middle of the night, a podcast-free problem solving walk might be a really good replica.

So, I’m interested to hear from people. I’m sure there are folks who have been shouting into their podcast app for the last 10 minutes, being like; “Yes I know this!” Or, “I do this thing!” So let me know by coming over to Instagram to the podcast post, or replying to one of my emails whether this thinking thing sparked anything in you. Or if there is any way, in your life, that you sort of replicate this same idea. 

You don’t sit in the dark, but you walk. Or you don’t walk, but you I don’t know, sit outside and doodle. That type of thing.

And on that note; last week when we had the tummy bug and I took my daughter to urgent care, she had my phone. And I had nothing else to do other than doodle. So I sat in that room and I drew a picture of my finger. And it was actually a really good picture of my finger. So it was very interesting, just knowing I had nothing else to do, so rather than sit there thinking. Which I think I made a conscious decision not to do that, because it was a worrying moment, and I didn’t know if I really wanted to be in my head in that moment while we were waiting at urgent care. So I decided to draw. And it was actually a really interesting exercise.

So, anyway. Let me know what experiences you’ve had in problem solving, in thought experimenting, that you’d like to share with me. Because I’m really, really fascinated by this idea right now. And obviously I’m turning it over a little bit, using this podcast; outlining this podcast as sort of a way for me to think through this idea of thinking in greater detail. 

Man, 30 minutes goes fast. Let’s switch gears and do a little weekly overshare, and then I’ll close it out. I am recovered from the stomach bug; but oh my gosh, it was gnarly. I don’t think I have ever been that sick. I had two IVs; including nutrients and a glutathione push. And it still took more than a week for my last major symptom to really feel like myself again. It was crazy.

Maybe it’s just because I haven’t experienced digestive illness to that degree many times; any times that I remember. But gosh, it was actually quite a bit more unpleasant and worse than any respiratory infection I’ve had. And I feel like I’m starting from absolute scratch from the gut perspective. So my plan is to focus on some prebiotic fibers, really well-cooked meals, brothy soups. We did some hot and sour soup the other day and it was so good. I’m starting to really get my appetite back, but it’s very interesting how something like this can affect you. 

So, if anybody has experience with the stop-start of recovering from a pretty gnarly digestive illness, please let me know. Because this is just one of the stranger circumstances that I have ever been through. Really, really glad; so far it looks like my husband was spared the whole thing. Because he was out of town when it started, anyway. Not dealing with as many bodily fluids as I was at the time. But, hopefully it stays that way. We finally got the baby through the whole thing. And hopefully we stay well for a little while; maybe even make it to spring. Keep your fingers crossed for us. 

Alright; I hope you enjoyed episode 14. Please share this podcast by screenshotting your podcast player and sharing the picture to your social media so folks can see what you’re listening to. Spread that word. It helps so much to know that we’re all sending bat signals to each other. I appreciate you all. That’s it for now! I’ll see you next week.

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