Liz Talks Podcast, Episode 11: sleep “training,” part 1

What little I remember from getting my first to sleep through (the good news: we made it happen).

TRANSCRIPT

Liz Talks Episode 11 

This is episode 11, topic: Sleep Training. 

In case you missed it, episode 10 was an interview with Britni Briney about:

  • Working with the Briney’s on the Athletic Mom project. 
  • The basics of training and nutrition. 
  • Britni’s history as an athlete and bikini competitor, and whether it can be done in a healthy way; 
  • And what a sustainable approach to training, nutrition, and wellness really looks like. 

Today, I’ll talk about Sleep Training; and this will likely take place over the course of several episodes, where I’ll delve into: 

  • My thoughts on sleep training before becoming a desperate zombie.
  • My journey through varying philosophies.
  • What I did with my own children, including experiences with sleep consultants.
  • The research that my teammate and researcher, Amanda, the neuroscientist from the Curious Coconut, has done on the topic on my behalf. 
  • Where we stand now with sleep in our house. 

So again, this will probably take place over the course of several episodes, because I have quite a bit to say. 

But first; I’d like to thank everyone for all of their support during the launch of the Athletic Mom program. You made it such a success. And we’ve had questions; what do I do after the end of this 8-week program? We are in this with you for the long haul. We learned so much from this launch, and from the first rounds of feedback. And we also learned that we really nailed it on a lot of things. And we’re really champing; and yeah, it’s not chomping, by the way, it’s champing at the bit, to keep working on this project. 

And at the heart of it is that we believe; we really believe that all moms are athletes. Albeit in varying stages of training, we all come from different backgrounds; difficult histories with training, and different immediate histories. We’ve even been able to show up in that way for ourselves. And we believe that harnessing your athleticism has benefits way beyond just so-called physical fitness. It changes your life. Your outlook. Your relationship with your body. Your relationships in general. And there is much power in acknowledging the athleticism it takes to be a parent. 

So we’re so excited for what’s ahead. We’re looking at strength programs. At body weight programs. So we’ve got a lot waiting to just be realized. And we’re really excited. And thankful to those of you who are entrusting their next 8 weeks to us. 

The launch is over, but you can still get the program at AthleticMom.com. 

Ok, onto the show. 

I want to start with some of my early experiences. I’m going to start at the very beginning. And you’ll have to bear with me, because I am going totally extemporaneously. I’ve got a few notes here, but I really felt like I needed to speak on this topic from the heart. So I hope I don’t speak too circuitously, and I don’t wander too much, and I’m able to kind of keep myself on track and speak to this in a way that makes sense. Because it’s a really, really big topic for me. And it’s actually becoming bigger as I sort of go through it, and intellectualize it, and try and integrate my experiences with my second child, the way I sort of thought I had with my first. But maybe, as I’ll talk about in the next couple of episodes, maybe I haven’t integrated those experiences as much as I thought I had.

But I’m going to speak in detail about what we did with my first, and why. What we did with my second, and why. And the way I’m looking at this now. And before I really get started with that; first of all, I want to say that I support all parents and their parenting decisions that come from love. And I also think part of making decisions from love is also making those tough decisions that have to take into account the mental and physical health of the parents. 

This is an incredibly nuanced topic, and I don’t think everyone likes to acknowledge that. I think there are many polarizing opinions on this topic. And it can really, really toxic to have this conversation, depending on where the person you’re speaking with is coming from. And certainly having the conversation on the internet. 

But I 100%; and you’ll have to bear with me for all of the episodes that we put out on sleep training; at least two. I want you to bear with me, because I made very different decisions with my second that I made with my first. And not only my thought process; the process itself; and the aftermath; aftermath is probably not the correct word. Because that sounds like post-hurricane, or something like that. But the after part is very different. 

Some of the things I say might surprise you. So please just hold your judgement until you’ve completed the full series. Until you’ve heard everything I have to say. And this goes for anyone who has worked with me on this. What I have to say over the next couple of episodes will make sense by the time it’s all finished.

But again; if you are a parent who is desperate for sleep, I understand. I feel you. I hear you. It is absolute torture. It’s one of the hardest things I’ve been through in my life. And whatever decision you made, as long as you’re feeding that little one with love and as many moments as you possibly can; you’re doing good. 

Ok. I’m going to preface this by saying; I spoke about our experiences with a parenting philosophy that I will talk about today. I talked about my experiences with this philosophy on the Modern Mama’s podcast years ago. And those are some of my favorite podcast interviews I’ve ever done. I loved them. Because I feel like it was such a safe space to articulate a lot of what had happened with regards to sleep and my journey through varying parenting philosophies, and how and why I landed where I did. So if you’re interested, you should go back and also listen to those episodes, after you listen to this one. 

I didn’t go back to review what I had said in the past about this; and maybe that’s good, maybe that’s not good. But I want everyone to just remember how our recollections of certain things shift over time. So there might be things that I say today that don’t 100% line up with what I said 4 years ago. But that’s because my kids have gotten older; I’ve had other experiences. And those memories have settled into my mind, into places that maybe they weren’t before. So as I recall my experiences, maybe it won’t sound exactly the same. But I assure you; in all circumstances, these are my recollections to the best of my knowledge and the best of my memory. 

And it’s how things; how I am informed now. That recall; my past experiences, and how they inform my present decisions. It’s all very important. So if I were to try and look at things from a framework that I had 4 years ago, I might not be able to make the genuine, heart-centered decisions that I’m making now. So if things sound a little bit different, or they don’t quite line up; it’s not because what I was saying before wasn’t accurate, or because what I’m saying now is not accurate. It’s because our memories, our recollections of things shift over time. And that’s ok. It’s ok with me; hopefully it’s also ok with you. 

Ok. So, first I will go into what brought me into this journey around sleep in the first place. My first daughter, who is almost 7 years ago. So this was a long time ago! My first daughter, I went into it thinking I knew everything. Have you seen that quote that’s like; I was the best parent in the world until I became one. I thought I knew exactly what I needed to do. Exactly how one should handle parenting. And if you just did those things, chances were your baby was going to be manageable. Everything was going to feel good, aligned, all of that. 

Ok; great. Then you actually have a baby. Right? So I had my beautiful daughter, and the first couple of weeks and months were, as you would expect, right? With a newborn. Baby waking a lot. I found myself very, very urgently attached to; the idea of space between her and I was incredibly stressful to me. So from the very beginning, we co-slept. And we didn’t just co-sleep; we bed shared. And it was a beautiful experience. And I think it definitely affected our attachment and our bond that we have today. It was what I needed at the time. 

So what I’m saying is not that bed-sharing is how you form a strong bond with your child. I’m saying that for me, and what my body and mind needed at that time in my life, that closeness was what facilitated that bond. So I’m not saying it’s a requirement to bed-share. But it was a good experience for me at the time.

It’s nuanced, of course, and I hope to come around to that and touch on that. But for me, it felt like a very urgent need to not be separated from her in any way. I needed to be able to touch her; to be able to open my eyes and see her. All of that. 

So where I planned on just having her in our room, in a side-car, I ended up just feeling like she had to be within an inch and a half of me at all times. So, obviously we stripped the bed of all covers and everything like that. We’re basically sleeping on a slab to keep the whole sleep environment safe. 

And it was also very conducive to what I believe Dr. James McKenna, I think his name is, who has done a lot of research on the mother-baby dyad, in particular with regards to breastfeeding. It enables something he calls breast sleeping. Which I still laugh, because this man, who has never actually breast-slept with a child, talks about how wonderful and how bonding it is. And it is. We have research on that; of course. 

But, breast sleeping basically being this idea that you can just whip out that breast and nurse the baby all night long, which helps mom get more sleep, which helps baby get more sleep. All of that. That it’s this wonderful, beautiful thing. And we did that. 

So my daughter at the very beginning; it was pretty normal newborn stuff. And I just figured if I responded to what I perceived as her needs, ok. Because here’s another thing I want to point out. There are times when I believe my instincts were actually my; hmm, what should I call them? I don’t want to say issues, but I’ll say issues for lack of a better word right now. So connecting to one’s instincts, I believe is probably a lifelong process. I’m not great with it. I don’t feel super connected to my instincts. When people say; go with your gut! I’m like; but my gut doesn’t know. 

So for me, I think with my first, I was operating not from instincts, but maybe from issues. So any time she made even the slightest peep, I was basically stuffing my breast in her mouth. Any time she cried, I was quieting her with breastfeeding. Any time she moved, or wiggled, or grunted, I was convinced there was something wrong that needed some kind of active addressing on my part.

So, as time went on, and she did not become a better sleeper. Which I thought; if I do the thing I’m supposed to do. If I’m an attachment parent, if I breastfeed all the time, if I hold her all the time; if I never leave her, then all of these things are just going to work themselves out, man! You know?

That’s not what was happening. Things were actually getting; I don’t want to say worse, because this is just humans learning each other, right? There’s no good or bad. But it felt bad. So over time; we weren’t getting longer stretches of sleep, we were getting shorter, and shorter, and shorter stretches of sleep. And I remember, around 4 months old, I was falling apart. I was like; I have to do this. I have to solider through this, and one day, it will get better.

But what was actually happening was, my baby was not napping. And that’s ok; babies around that age are napping, what? Around 30 to 45 minutes at a stretch? But not one single time I had ever put her down for a nap. My arms were full of baby 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, unless my mom came over and let the baby nap on her. And that was very helpful; but she also lived more than an hour away.

So; the daytime was wearing on me. And the nights were wearing on me. The baby was waking up every, I kid you not, every 15 minutes. And that is untenable. It is not survivable in your right mind. It is so, so hard. I was nursing that baby all the time. All night long. 

And I felt like I could soldier through it; the tiredness and all of that, by basically being a recluse and staying in the house all day and not doing a whole lot. But I just felt like; you know; you just, I’m going to attachment parent harder. And obviously, I am very clearly misrepresenting some of what attachment parenting means. But this is what I thought, in my head. I’ve got to do this more. I’ve got to do it harder. And this too shall pass.

But then my body started to break down. There’s only so much you can take. And you know what? There are moms out there who are still doing this with their 4-year-olds. And the fact that they are not institutionalized blows my mind. And I think it’s possible that my tolerance level for this type of pain and torture is just a lot lower than some other people’s. Hats off to the people that can give of themselves beyond the point that I was able to do.

But I was falling apart. Physically and mentally. And I could not figure out what to do; because my heart would not let me do anything else. Like I said; any time the baby would grunt, cry out. Which, babies do that at night. This is true. Babies make noises at night. It doesn’t necessarily mean anything is wrong. I’m not telling you that a screaming, crying, clearly distraught, distressed baby is normal and not anything to think twice about. I’m saying that babies make noises at night, and that doesn’t mean they need intervention. I’m telling you; if this baby made a peep, my hand was on her belly, I was comforting her, and I was putting my boob in her mouth. That is not what was needed in that moment. It truly is not; I promise you.

So, at the time the parenting philosophy that I was familiar with, other than attachment parenting. Which, we can kind of go back and talk about the origins of attachment parenting. But attachment theory is what attachment parenting is sort of formulated on. Attachment parenting is kind of a broad range of people and ideas that sort of centers around a few key concepts. Things like co-sleeping, babywearing, and prompt; well, this is the philosophy of aware parenting. Which I’ll get into that in a second. But breastfeeding, co-sleeping, babywearing, and responsiveness. Right? 

And what that turns into for some people, particularly people that are coaching attachment parenting, at times becomes; you do all of these things and you do not let your baby cry. I remember reading some kind of anecdotal short story type thing online that was talking about these babies in some village somewhere that never cry. And it was because their moms breastfeed them, and they’re never aware from their mothers, and they sleep with their mothers, and this and that. And I thought; yeah, of course! Yeah, yeah! They never cry! And in my head, this thing of never crying meant they were ok. But we’re going to talk about crying and the absence of crying here in a little bit.

But at the time, the other philosophy that I was familiar with, and I really liked, was respectful parenting. RIE. Which is, for the most part, I think; the bullhorn belongs to a woman named Janet Lansbury. And she has a podcast; No Bad Kids. Her book, I believe is Toddler Discipline Without Shame. And she has another book, as well. But I loved what she would talk about with regards to respecting babies as whole, competent people from day one. Communicating with babies and making that a priority. 

And I thought; ok. If I’ve learned so much from Janet Lansbury of how to treat my child, then she’s got to know something about sleep, too. So I went, I looked on her website, and I found a sleep coach on her website. And I was like; ok. I’m reaching out to this sleep coach, because I cannot take it anymore. 

So I reached out, and I had a consultation with this person. And I just think it was maybe a case of wrong place, wrong time. The RIE philosophy talks about crying in some similar ways to aware parenting. And I’m going to talk more about aware parenting in just a moment. But one of the central tenants of aware parenting that is different from attachment parenting. Or at least attachment parenting as I was counseled on it. Is that responsiveness to crying is not the same as fixing crying. 

So where I felt like my version of attachment parenting was stopping the crying at all costs. That stopping the crying meant that baby was ok. What aware parenting does is it kind of opens the door to this idea that crying is a means, and our babies; one of their only means, of stress release. And that is not just a communication function. Not just a; something is wrong, fix it with your boob, function. But that it is a necessary sort of stress release valve. And that it does not need to be stopped, but it needs to be responded to. 

And in aware parenting, that means that baby is in your arms. Of course, you check and make sure all other things are ok. No poopy diaper, no illness, no emergency, all of that. All other things taken care of; if that baby needs to cry, you put that baby in your arms and you allow them to express the stress, and the feelings, and the trauma of the day. Allow it to move through them and get past that moment together. You’re never leaving your baby alone to cry. And that’s where we get to more of the cry it out stuff. Which I will talk about probably in the next episode. But those are the kind of conflicting ideas. Not conflicting ideas. But those are the two veins that we’re talking about. 

Now, with REI; with Janet Lansbury’s stuff; there was some talk of how babies sometimes need to cry. It’s a stress release; it’s a natural mechanism. It’s part of what babies do. So there’s this effort to sort of shift the thinking around crying particularly, as it pertained to getting babies to sleep more at night. But at the time; and I don’t know what they talk about now; I did notice over time that Janet Lansbury was incorporating more sort of aware parenting stuff into her website. Like, where maybe it wasn’t before on a post, she had incorporated some of the founder of aware parenting ideas; Aletha Solter. So I feel like at a certain point, that started to be incorporated into the REI philosophy.

But at the time, it was much less intricate. Much less purposeful. And more so; we can implement these principles of sleep training, and you can feel better about the fact that there’s going to be crying involved. 

So, again. Wrong place, wrong time. The sleep consultant was very helpful. She gave me a plan. And I tried it for like 2 seconds, and I was like; I can’t do it. It was basically; I’m going to remember the term incorrectly. I believe there’s different methods of “sleep training.” There’s extinction; which is basically cry it out. Like; put you in your bed at 7, I’ll see you at 7 in the morning. There’s graduated extinction; which is sort of parental input at certain moments in the process. And then there’s another one; I’ll have to pull up what it is, and I’ll likely do that for the next episode. 

But, at the time, it was kind of one of those; the baby cries for this amount of time, and then you go in. And the baby cries for this amount of time, and you stretch it out, and over time, baby kind of learns to “self-soothe.” We can talk about that, as well. This idea of soothing. 

But at the time, the approach just didn’t resonate, so we didn’t do it. But I was still desperate. I was still so desperate. And incredibly, phenomenally, talented Googler that I am, I ended up finding this one little website from this one person who was talking about the middle ground between crying it out, and basically being chained to a situation that was causing me to break down both physically and mentally. And it was the gray area. And I knew; I knew there was a gray area! This was a situation where my gut really was guiding me in the right direction. I felt very aimless and unsure, but my gut was telling me; keep looking. Keep looking. Keep looking. 

And I’m so glad I did! Because I found some obscure website that started talking about aware parenting. And I’ll just read this; this is from the aware parenting website; awareparenting.com.

“Aware Parenting is a form of attachment parenting. We recommend breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing, and prompt responsiveness to crying. Aware Parenting adds another element by recognizing the stress-release function of crying in addition to its communication function.”

And I just remember thinking; oh my gosh, this is it! This is it! And interestingly this ended up the foundation of a lot of what I talked about with the Modern Mamas. A lot of what I talked about in my Facebook parenting group; which, you guys. I’m sorry; that group became so big and so active, that I just couldn’t provide the leadership for that group that I felt like it was demanding at the time. And that was kind of an act of self-care where I had to step away. I do have moderators; the group is still there, and active. But I am also locked out of my Facebook; so I haven’t checked in in a while. 

But that parenting group; there’s so much conversation around aware parenting in there. Because one of the top things people would pop in ask is; you guys. I’m dying. We’re not sleeping. This is a nightmare; I don’t know what to do. Help me! And people would pop in say; listen to this podcast Liz did. Or, we’ve implemented aware parenting and it’s been amazing. For some people it’s not amazing, because it’s really, really hard. It’s not a quick fix. But this was the main topics of conversation in that group. Which is really, really cool.

So, in discovering aware parenting, and then devouring everything I could find about this idea that they call crying in arms. Right? There’s not crying it out, leaving baby alone in a room to cry. It’s this idea that if a baby is crying, that baby needs you. And that baby also probably needs to cry. That babies learn so much, and are exposed to so much all during the course of their day. Everything is new. Many things are frightening. Some things are unsettling. And the way that they process that is by crying. 

And I was like; oh my gosh, this is it. This is it! There’s a difference between crying in fear and abandonment, and crying for release. And all of that can be assessed in the arms of your caretaker. So, this was around still in that 4-month mark. This is like me living a lifetime in the 4-month mark. And I know people talk about 4-month sleep regression; all that. Whatever. This is when it all happened, and this is when I needed it. And I’m so grateful that I discovered it.

So, around that time, I started working with an aware parenting consultant named Eliza Parker. And she and I have done some podcast interviews, as well. I know she’s also gone on the podcast with the Modern Mamas. She’s a phenomenal person, and she really helped me to implement aware parenting with my first daughter. And it was work. Let me tell you. But there came a point where I knew, and finally kind of trusted my gut around this, that this nursing every 15 minutes and not hearing what my daughter was trying to tell me was actually interfering with my ability to gauge what she actually needed in the first place.

So of course; nursing is this beautiful thing that we can do with our babies for comfort in addition to nourishment. It’s physical, and emotional nurturing. But, and I will not articulate this as it deserves to be articulated. But there’s another concept in aware parenting that really, really hit home hard for me. And it’s a concept of control patterns. And one of the things that beautiful things in life can become is a control pattern.

So, I don’t even want to say; so a control pattern would in essence be something that a baby or a parent or whomever uses as a means to; not self-regulate, but to help themselves in a moment where proper help is not provided. So, if a baby really, really needed to cry, but in the arms of it’s parent. Right? Maybe baby would suck their thumb. And that is not to say that thumb sucking is always bad. Or even bad a majority of the time. This is just an example. 

So let’s say baby feels a strong emotion. Baby does not have an appropriate outlet for that emotion; maybe because parent is not present at that time, whatever it might be. That thumb sucking is a way to sort of regulate emotions that actually do need to be expressed but do not have a safe environment in which to be expressed. 

So, there’s that idea. And I would also like to translate that to this breastfeeding situation that I found myself in. Where every time my baby made a peep, I was trying to nurse her. So that comes to sort of a point where your communication with baby basically says; you are doing this, you need this. And that becomes a control pattern, right? If what baby really needs is to express themselves through crying and tears in your arms, and you’re saying; here. Nurse. Nurse. This will stop the bad feelings. This will quiet you. 

At times, that is absolutely appropriate, of course. But, if your instinct is kicking in, and saying; I don’t think this is the solution. To work to dismantle that control pattern, it’s work. But it’s one of the most interesting and compelling and difficult and rewarding experiences that I’ve ever had. 

So what we started to do was; and I knew that my daughter did not need to nurse every 15 minutes. She just didn’t. So what I started to do was, at that first waking. Which would have been 15 to 20 minutes after getting her to sleep. Wakes up screaming, and looking for my breast again. Instead, I would say; no, no. I want to hear what you have to say. I would sometimes say that in my head, and I would sometimes ay that to her. Something like that. And the floodgates would open. 

She’s so angry, because she feels she needs to nurse. That’s what she’s looking for. And I’m holding her, and saying; I hear you. I’m listening. And doing my best to really just be present for these extremely intense feelings that are pouring out of her. Because I know in my heart and in my head, she doesn’t need to eat right now. She doesn’t need that type of nurturing. I’ve done that type of nurturing, and we’re still waking up freaking out every 15 minutes. There’s nothing else wrong. There’s no underlying problem. So I’m going to hear her.

And man, that first aware parenting session is intense. Because babies cry in ways that is just disturbing to your core. And I understand that there are lots of; yeah, but. Uh-huh, but. Like, for example; cave babies wouldn’t be allowed to cry because that would call in predators, right? Moms are designed to keep their babies from crying. We’re supposed to do that. That’s why it feels bad. Don’t resist that instinct. 

Ok; sure. But it’s just like saying; we have to eat exactly like a caveman did. The nuance, the context, the availability, how our bodies have changed, how our stimuli have changed. All of those things to me speak to the demand for an integrated nuanced approach to how we deal with children and their feelings. So it made sense to me, right? And over time; and this was a long process. It was not linear. After a long time of really looking for opportunities to listen and hear her; while still, of course, maintaining the breastfeeding relationship. I still nursed at night; I just didn’t nurse every 15 minutes. And it was that dance between the two of us. When was the right time to actually feed her? When was the right time to do crying in arms? Things like that. And I don’t even remember any more, if after that first session we got two hours straight of sleep. I don’t remember.

But there were weeks and months of just becoming a parent that could hear it. That could hear the crying, and not feel panicked and that horrible fight or flight; get me out of here, I don’t know what to do, I have to stop this noise, feeling. 

So, over time, we worked that. And when it was time for her to transition to her own room; which I can’t remember exactly when we did that. Maybe between 8 months and a year. We did a lot of listening in the room. Bedtimes were long and drawn out. And also, beautiful and effective. There were times where I sat with my hand on her belly, just talking to her. Telling her a story. Then I’d say; I’m going to leave the room now. If you need me, I’ll be here.

And one of the things that I always; one of the values I had was I wanted her to know, and I felt like maybe paradoxically this would work. Right? You think; you can’t teach a baby; I don’t think this. You don’t think this. But this is what is thought. That if you respond to a baby when they’re crying when they should be sleeping, that they’re going to always think you’re going to come and respond to them and that’s going to perpetuate the “problem”. That’s not really a problem.

But I thought to myself; if I show her that anytime she needs me, I will be there; then she will not be fearful of sleeping. That she knows if she ever needed me, I would show up. So that was kind of the value that I had. If she cried out for me; I would be there. Even if she cried out for me six times in one night. I would be there. And I would give her what she needed.

There were nights where I felt like; ok, I’m going to bring her in our room. I feel like she needs us. I feel like she needs some closeness. And I would do that. And I think it “worked”. Worked in quotes, of course. because over time, with a lot of patience and a lot of hard work, and a lot of crying. A lot of unraveling all of those first four to six moths of just feeling like; oh my gosh, are we ever going to get there? Am I ever going to get a solid chunk of sleep on a consistent basis again? 

But all of that work led to having a little one that now is 7 and has slept phenomenally well since she was 1-1/2, 2? She doesn’t wake up at night. She sleeps all the way through. She sleeps peacefully. There haven’t been hardly any night terrors or nightmares. My 7-year-old’s sleep now is so good. And I could not be more grateful for that journey.

Now, of course, in talking about this, and in the next episode in talking about my journey with my second; it might just be that this is who my kid is. And after 4, 6, 8 months, she was just going to be a great sleeper and we didn’t need to do any of this. I could have just continued nursing her every 15 minutes, and she still would have turned into a great sleeper from 2 to 7. Maybe these are just their personalities, and no matter what we did, it would have been the same outcome. But I sort of think that’s probably not the case. I think some of these inputs that we did probably really set the stage for her being a great sleeper now. And something that I’m very, very grateful for. And I’ll talk more about our second baby in the next episode. 

Of course, aware parenting is difficult to implement, as life changes over time. And I’m doing more research and more reflection on that right now, bringing a completely fresh set of eyes to it. But I am grateful for that experience. And feeling like, for those months and couple of years, really responding through an aware parenting framework around all of our day. Not just sleep at night. But it certainly improved it. Right? 

And it was exhausting. And I’ll talk about this in the next episode. But when you have another kid, and you’re managing two completely separate sets of needs, and also managing those two completely different people together at the same time, it becomes more difficult in many ways. And I’ll talk about that in the next episode. 

But I had the time with my first. I stayed home with her. My entire mission was figuring this out. Implementing aware parenting, and bringing this miracle to other people, and living it from the beginning of the day to the end of the day and through the night. So that was really beautiful for us. 

Now, I have a lot to say. And a lot that’s fresher on my mind as far as what we did with my second. And I’m going to go ahead and end this episode here. Because I do have a lot more to say, but I would like to compartmentalize it in one episode. So I’ll do that; I’ll tackle it in episode 12.

In the meantime, I want to refer you to those podcasts that I did with the Modern Mamas. You can probably Google Liz Wolfe, Modern Mamas, aware parenting, to hear what I said about this years ago when I was more in the thick of it. If you have a young kid, and you’re struggling with sleep; go there and listen to those episodes. Because, just because I talk about it in a certain way now doesn’t mean that everything we were doing then wasn’t exactly what we needed to be doing, and exactly the interventions that we needed to put into action to get into a really good, healthy place now. So I highly recommend you go listen to those episodes. And also listen to the episodes with Eliza Parker, from Conscious Baby. She’s wonderful, compassionate, highly sensitive, and she really helped me navigate those early days and weeks of aware parenting. 

Now, I will admit that this next episode might have some people disappointed in me. And I’m open to that. I can maybe sort of handle it. But I want to talk about some of what I understand now as what I went through as part of my experience utilizing the concepts of aware parenting with my first. Where I sort of stored some negative emotions, and how that affected my journey with my second with sleep training. 

So again, I hope people will stick with me for both of these episodes so we can really talk it all through before coming to any conclusions. And look for that episode; it will be episode 12. And because this entire episode was basically an overshare, I’ll just skip to the outro. I hope you enjoyed episode 11. Please share this podcast with everyone far and wide. Especially those who are struggling with sleep, crying, sleep training, any of that. And for whom things like maybe cry it out does not resonate. And I’m going to talk about cry it out in the next episode. So I’ll see you then, at episode 12.

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