Balanced Bites Podcast #425: Enneagram & Life with Jess Gaertner

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#425: Jess & Liz talk life, “the sickness,” Dax Shepard, and the Enneagram.

Jess Gaertner is an Enneagram coach and creator of the Enneagram Course bundle. She’s also a food photographer and podcast host with a passion for real food, real connection, and sharing herself – flaws and all. She pours her heart and soul into the weekly podcast she co-hosts, The Modern Mamas Podcast, which is a safe space to share her authentic experience of motherhood, and where expert guests educate and empower women to take charge of their health. When not working, Jess loves to spend time with her husband Tim, two kiddos Bear and Camille, and two large Great Pyrenees rescues. They are her greatest accomplishment!

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Modern Mamas Podcast:

Balanced Bites Podcast #425 with Jess Gaertner

Welcome to the new Balanced Bites Podcast! I’m your host, Liz, a nutritional therapy practitioner and best selling author bringing you candid, up-front, myth-busting and thought-provoking conversations about food, fitness, and life. Remember:  The information in this podcast should not be considered personal, individual, or medical advice.

I have spent YEARS researching whether a good multivitamin is truly necessary for overall health. But the truth is, there are a LOT of opinions out there, including from people like me, who love to ask lots of obnoxious, overly detailed questions. But the truth is, if I’m paying attention to how I FEEL, my answer was clear: I will be taking my multivitamin. And it will be from the brand Needed. Needed third-party tests EVERY batch for performance and quality, which is incredibly rare in the supplement industry and also incredibly important to me! To get started with Needed, head to Use code balanced for 20% off your one-time order or your first three months’ subscription. While you’re at it, add Stress Support to your cart. I’m loving that one, too.

Now about today’s episode…

I’m talking to my wonderful dear friend Jess GURTner, who is the cohost of the modern mamas podcast – along our friend laura bruner, who was just on the show talking sourdough a few weeks back. The modern mamas podcast is a longtime favorite of mine, and Jess describes it as a safe space to share her authentic experience of motherhood, and where expert guests educate and empower women to take charge of their health.Jess is a Enneagram coach, food photographer, and again a podcast host with a passion for real food, real connection, and sharing herself – flaws and all. Jess is a recovering perfectionist who now focuses on supporting women in finding their true authentic selves through the Enneagram, nourishing their minds and bodies intuitively, and creating joy in their lives as they navigate the motherhood transition. When not working, Jess loves to spend time with her husband Tim, two kiddos Bear and Camille, and two large Great Pyrenees rescues. They are her greatest accomplishment!

Jess is one of my favorite people to contemplate LIFE with, and I can’t imagine a better person to walk through the life changing framework of the enneagram with. So if you’re ready for some deep self-knowledge and self-actualization, check out her new Enneagram Course Bundle.

3 Courses in one:

  • Enneagram Basics
  • Enneagram for Health and Wellness
  • Enneagram for Work and Business

Let’s talk to Jess!

Liz Wolfe: Andy, he does all the sound and he does everything. And he told me, I was like, I wanna be more like these, cool podcasters who have those like fancy microphones that are right in front of their faces and they have the little foam stuff over the top and he’s like, well that foam stuff is for wind, it’s for like, if you’re a reporter and you’re outside and there’s wind blowing and it’s so they don’t need that.

It just looks cool. And I was like, oh, okay..

Jess Gaertner: I mean, your sounds amazing too. I, but it came with like a thing that you put over it and I put it on and I was like, it doesn’t sound any better to me, or worse.

Oh. And I think it’s supposed to do the same thing as like the pop socket it’s supposed to or not Pop

Liz Wolfe: Socket. The pop socket. What’s it

Jess Gaertner: called? Pop filter. It’s a pop the pop filter. We’re so professional.

Liz Wolfe: We are so professional. We’re so good at what we do. We’re, is it okay if I just put this in so we can just start talking?

Yeah, absolutely. I’m recording already. Okay. Do it. Well now I don’t know what to

Jess Gaertner: say.

Liz Wolfe: Now I’m stuck. Um, yeah, bet. I really liked, this is a personal thing. I really liked what you said to me earlier about, uh, doing a Patreon that’s very intriguing to me. And I would like to hear more about how, , how you’re liking your modern mama’s Patreon.

Jess Gaertner: Yeah, we’ve been doing it for two years maybe, and it was slow going at first and now it’s just kind of like built and built, especially in the last month or two because we kind of changed things. But I was thinking of it cuz I was like, okay, she’s got two podcasts. I know that’s a lot, , to be doing but the Patreon community has just been a way to do what you’re doing, do what we’re doing already, , and just get a little support for it. I mean, it has been, it it, it’s enough for us to support the people that help us do all the things.

Yes. So that’s like, well,

Liz Wolfe: that’s the whole point. Yeah. That’s the whole point. It’s not like I’m not complaining that I’m not, well, I am complaining that I’m not making any money, but it’s like I love, it’d be nice you’re putting I love to do. It’d be nice. Yeah. It would be nice if, at the very least, like the time spent, because even if, I mean to have a quality podcast, like you have to buy the mic, obviously you have to spend the time.

But I also have someone who helps me with edits, who does production and all of that. And I think, I don’t know, I think production value is important. I think it’s sort of, it. If it was the difference between me doing it and me not doing it, I would let it go and I would just basically throw something up there.

But I feel like it’s kind of an act of respect. For the listener, the person that’s listening to it, to make it easy for them to listen, to make it easy and enjoyable. Otherwise, you’re basically just asking them to do you a favor and like listen to you screeching for an hour. And I feel bad about that.

So I have a sound guy, cuz I can’t , I can’t do it. That would be the difference between me doing a podcast and not doing a podcast because it takes so much time away from family and from things that I really need to be around for. So it’s always trying to strike that balance.

And if I was able to, I mean, I subscribe to a ton of cks mm-hmm. Individuals that I wanna support, you know, monetarily directly. And I feel like, well this might lead us into some of the Enneagram stuff actually. I was thinking a little bit about my Gretchen Rubin four tendencies obliger thing.

And I, I, I love showing up for. You know, this ocean of people, not ocean, maybe pond, maybe silt pond of people. Oh, it’s an ocean. It’s an ocean. This vast ocean of people. Lake,

Jess Gaertner: lake, Michigan, at least

Liz Wolfe: , , lake Okoboji of people. But it’s also so abstract because they followed me.

I know they opted in, but , am I reaching people? Am I actually showing up for people who were there, waiting for me to do something? You know, provide them some value. And so a sub would be they, it would be people saying yes, you know? Yeah. , yes, I’m here. I want, and that would so appeal to the obliger side of me, which is like, you’re here, I’m gonna show up for you.

Mm-hmm. Totally. Which just makes it a little more concrete. Yeah. That’s

Jess Gaertner: how, I mean, that’s how we feel. And it’s a very special community too, because, I mean, obviously just the podcast task, li listenership in general is special because people are choosing to devote, you know, an hour of their time. Yeah.

You know, maybe 30 minutes if you’re double speed listening like me, like a. Weirdo. ,

Liz Wolfe: I’m trying so hard to do that. I need, I can never, I can’t do it. Do I just need to get used to it? Does it take some time to get used to the faster clip? I think so,

Jess Gaertner: yeah. Okay. I mean, sometimes I do have to slow things down cuz I’m like, whoa, I didn’t understand a word that just came outta that person’s mouth.

But I think it also depends on your natural cadence. So you, I feel, have a very, just a natural easy cadence of speaking. Whereas I feel like me naturally, I’m like a mile a minute. So to speed me up, it wouldn’t make any sense. I dunno, maybe people too, but what was I saying?

Liz Wolfe: Oh God, I’m sorry I interrupted you.

You’re, it, it takes time. People are devoting like an hour and sometimes more of their time. Yeah. And so

Jess Gaertner: that’s why I always feel like the podcast has always been so special because it’s not , it’s not like Instagram where you’re putting something out and you’re like, I don’t know if people actually are seeing this or want it or care.

Um, but to see your podcast listeners show up and you see my gosh, . Thousands of people are listening to me, they must be interested. And then even a deeper layer of that Patreon community where they’re like, oh, I want to use my limited funds to actually support you cuz I care that much.

It’s a whole different level of, I don’t know, validation maybe.

Liz Wolfe: Yes. And I feel like that would take away some of the frustration of, okay, I’m doing all this work. Mm-hmm. And is anybody even gonna hear it? But for people when you know someone is really opted in and waiting for that, , You’re glad to do it.

You know, it’s, it’s a good thing. Speaking of that, by the way, we both started our podcast before everyone and their Aunt Millie had a podcast. It was when celebrities still thought podcasts were dumb. And now every celebrity, every reality star, everybody in the entire world has a podcast.

And sponsorships are a lot harder to come by now because people are either sponsoring they, I, I, listen, I don’t, I’m not a big fan. I shouldn’t say this. I think he could take it. I think if he and I ever met in person, I think he could understand. I’m not the biggest fan of Dax Shepherd. I

Jess Gaertner: was just gonna say something about him.

So that’s bananas. Do we,

Liz Wolfe: do we like as and do you like Dax? She, I,

Jess Gaertner: I guess it’s ok. Have a huge opinion. I actually prefer, sorry, not to get us off topic, but if we’re talking about celebrity podcasts, I prefer Smartless over, have you, have you listened? Smart? Who’s that? That’s Jason Bateman, who is my celebrity man.

Oh, I love him. Obsessed with him? Yes, it is. Um, oh my gosh. The guy from this is horrible, but the guy from Will and Grace, not the young guy, his friend Jack, the actor. Okay. So did you watch Will and Grace? No. Oh, I can’t. I should not. Name and then Will Arnette.

Liz Wolfe: Oh, I love Will Arnett. So it’s a, it’s great.

It’s like an arrested development throwback, basically. Oh, it’s, it’s the whole vibe is great. Michael and Job and some other guy. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I will listen to that. It’s, it’s not that I don’t like Dax. She, it’s kind of personal. It’s like really personal. Why I don’t like Dax Shepherd, so I can’t really talk about it in this podcast.

What did he do to you, Liz? I, I’ll have to just tell you another time. I’ll just, okay. He and his wife both did something really mean to me that they didn’t even know they were doing. Not really. I mean, sort of, I’ll tell you at some point. Okay. But, but I did listen to his podcast the other day and it was a really good, somebody sent it to me because people are always talking about his podcast and I’m always like, who’s this guy?

I haven’t been podcasting for 10 years. I mean, deck Shepard just shows up on the scene. , and, , I listened to the podcast and it was a good podcast. It was a good interview. The substance of it was good, but I noticed, and this is , this is what gets me. I will spend, , I do have somebody that edits the podcast for minor things, but I will edit my own podcasts to make sure they make sense, to make sure they flow elegantly in a way that only I could do.

And sometimes it takes me like three hours to do. And you can use these automatic editing things where you just automatically clip out filler words and extra gaps in spaces, but sometimes it doesn’t sound right. Sometimes if you take out a filler word, it sounds like somebody’s going like, like it just doesn’t sound right.

And if it doesn’t sound right, I will go back and make it sound right. Mm-hmm. But when I was listening to D’S podcast, it was like an hour and a half of totally obvious automatic. Maybe not automatic, just like sound extractions. And as a podcaster doing those edits, I noticed it. And so I was just sitting there like, he probably makes a hundred thousand dollars an episode off this dang thing.

Not really, but he probably makes thousands upon thousands of dollars off this podcast. And just feeding it through to an editor who’s just clipping out stuff and not worrying about how it sounds. And just on top of that and the very personal affront that he and his wife have no idea what they did to me.

It just, it just was a not a good moment. It’s not, it’s not a good fit. It’s not a good fit for you.

Jess Gaertner: No. I haven’t listened in a long time and so maybe if I went back and listened to some recent episodes, that would bother me. But I guess maybe the ones that I listened to were the early ones. Was it a recent one or was it an early one?

I think it was

Liz Wolfe: a probably a more recent one. Yeah.

Jess Gaertner: Yeah. That would bother me. I’d rather have a few ums or likes than it. Feel robotic, if that makes sense. Yes. You know? Yes.

Liz Wolfe: And it felt like the gaps were shortened a little bit too much. So, you know, not like deep breaths. And I was like, you know, I don’t mind when, when I can hear that someone’s being contemplative, you know?

And they’re like, and you know, and they take a deep breath and they’re being thoughtful. I can handle that. That’s fine. It doesn’t have to be snappy, snappy, snappy. Yeah. But I don’t know. For some reason I was very offended by it. Because we do, we work really hard and we work hard. Regardless. Mm-hmm. So this is not, I mean, hopefully nobody leaves a review on this podcast and they’ll say, ah, she does complain about not making any money.

It’s not that at all. It’s just trying to find that balance and then you’re doing something, you have no idea if you know you’re taking too much time away from your family or you know, what the monetary value you can put on that is in the first place, but you’re doing something that you’re sort of feel like you’re called to do and then other people can just jump in and start making a trillion dollars.

 I don’t know. No. That Dax Shepherd sponsor money. That’s what I, I want, I want some of that Dax money.

Jess Gaertner: You know, I think it’ll all, I, I think, well, number one, I think that you’re in the right space. You have the perfect podcasting voice and

Liz Wolfe: you just, you thank you so

Jess Gaertner: much. I think you thrive with the spoken word.

And I know obviously you have written books and, and you’re really great at the written word as well, but , I just feel like I. I could listen to you talk about, literally I could listen to you talk about Dax Shepherd for an hour and be like, yes, this is amazing. Well

Liz Wolfe: we’re banking on other people feeling the same way as you do since I’ve been talking about him complaining about him for 10 minutes.

You know what I was gonna ask you about podcasting too, and, okay, so I did a episode so you wanna start a podcast, so, and it seems to me that people are interested cuz it got downloaded, the regular amount of time. So we’ll just keep talking. Okay. I’m wondering, and this is career stuff, I, I was doing some real soul searching around this the other day and wondering what the impact is that I wanna make.

I know that, I know that I can be useful to people, but I’m trying to figure out, I’ve gotta narrow it down because there’s just not enough time in the day and if I’m not doing anything well you, that doesn’t feel great. So I need to pick

Jess Gaertner: what you’re doing. Everything. You’re not doing one thing. What is that saying?

Um, If everything’s a priority, nothing’s a priority, right? Yes. I think that’s what I was trying to say. Yes,

Liz Wolfe: I like that and that jack of all trades, master of none, but I’m literally master of literally none. And then it’s feel that to my core, there have been times when I know what my, what my impact should be.

 I was really down the skincare road for a long time and I think that made the impact that I wanted to make, proportionate to my desire to make an impact. And then there’s a book and then now I’m just trying to figure out, and for a while it was parenting, but that goes so dang fast. The second you get your bearings, you’re into the next stage and it’s like, okay, well I don’t have time to write about this cuz now we’re in something different.

So that was kind of, that’s kind of fallen by the wayside. But in my soul searching, I was trying to figure out. How much, how much income is enough? You know, , I don’t wanna fly, charter jets to the Super Bowl. That’s an inside joke, because I just did that.

Jess Gaertner: No, you were, I saw you and I thought you were on some like influencer

Liz Wolfe: press tour.

Uh, totally, totally. That’s what it was. That’s exactly what it was. I did see some real influencers at the Super Bowl and I was like, well,

Jess Gaertner: That’s,

Liz Wolfe: that’s not, you could always go that route. You could always lean heavily into the influencer route. Oh my gosh. Uh oh my gosh. Some of these mom influencers are so funny.

They’re just like fully champions of mediocrity and I’m here for it. It’s like the best thing I’ve ever seen. Yeah. But I was trying to figure out what SU success looks like. Mm-hmm. And how I mark that. Obviously it’s not even something, it’s so strange. I never even thought about it for probably eight years when I was doing the podcast with Diane.

And some of that is my probably Enneagram and Obliger stuff where I wanted to show up for her. And now that I’m doing this myself, I’m like, okay, who am I showing up for? What is it that I need for this to be sustainable? And I was thinking about how potentially making more money is also just part and parcel or wrapped up together with like notoriety or being known or being visible.

And I was like, I don’t know that that’s what I want. I don’t want to be. Necessarily known. I want, I I don’t need that broad net. I don’t even know if I’m comfortable with it. I don’t like the idea. I mean, some of the people you and I know and you know, Rob elbows with in the Real food community, they’ll go to the store and get chased down, , because they are legit famous.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, I saw fricking Mark Sisson on Miami Beach and I was like, that’s Mark Sisson. Know, he is, he’s known. Yeah. And , I don’t know that I want that. And you know, you gotta figure out it, it used to be that your people would find you. Mm-hmm. And now you have to cast such a wide net for your people to find you.

And it involves being visible in a way that I don’t know, that I’m comfortable with their desire. So, you know, there’s just a lot of soul searching going on.

Jess Gaertner: I feel that to Mike where I think we’ve had several Voxer conversations where I’ve been, I’ve literally said if I could just stop tomorrow and go, I don’t know, be a potter and make pottery and have a little store and never have to come on.

Social media again, I would be so happy. And that’s, it’s there’s so much duality to it because there are so many good things about social media and being quote unquote in the spotlight or having a podcast. I mean, I’ve made some incredible friendships. You included. Yeah. Um, just wonderful community.

There were times in my life where financially it was just such a great thing for our family, and I have so much to be grateful for, but at the same time, it’s like, it’s exhausting. Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes, and it’s also you and I feel very similar in that. , I have so many different interests than things that excite me, that I can go down rabbit holes of.

Like, I love the Enneagram and I will pursue that fully and learn about it and be like, okay, great. What else? What’s next? And so I feel it’s so ever-evolving and I feel like sometimes you kind of have to be so niched down to be like, really successful. And that’s just not the way. That I roll. Yeah.

Like I’m constantly, I guess, evolving my interest and sometimes that just doesn’t really translate because you might build a community on a certain thing like skincare or baby making or you know, postpartum, whatever. , and then as you get older, like I’m 39, I think we’re the same age actually. Yeah. , now I’m transitioning into , I’m a middle-aged mom.

, oh my God, menopause is on the horizon at some point soon-ish, you know, within the next 10 to 20 years. I don’t know what, whatever happens. And , now my interests are shifting. Does that translate to this community that I’ve built? So I don’t know. Does that make sense? Yes.

Liz Wolfe: It’s, you know what it is, it’s reflective of full authenticity on your part because it’s not , and this goes back to the Dak Shepherd thing, he’s an actor, right?

So he can play No, this, that doesn’t even make sense. Hold on, wind that back. Rewind editor, Liz, myself, edit that out. The, it’s, there was a time early on when people were interested in whatever we wanted to say. Mm-hmm. So it was just like, oh, Liz is talking about this. You know, I’ll go on that journey with her.

But now the marketplace is so saturated that understandably people have started to seek out niche individuals. So you know, a blood sugar person and a biohacking person and a motherhood, conscious parenting person. So everything is so niche. That’s what people’s feeds look like now.

Mm-hmm. Unless you are, uh, this major celebrity where people are just like, I don’t even get whatever they’re talking about. I think it’s cool. Yeah. You know, and I, that’s, I might not listen to podcasts, but I certain am certainly am interested in certain famous people’s lives and will follow that. And if something pops up about them, I will immediately read it.

Many of the celebrities I would desire to follow are dead because I’m an 80 year old woman at heart. And you know, Andy Griffith, when he was alive, did not have. An Instagram Yeah. Profile. But it’s just interesting. It’s interesting figuring out how to serve people and, and find people and, and all of that.

So on that note, tell me, do do a little Instagram or not Instagram, a little Enneagram analysis where do you bring this in? Maybe we can kind of analyze my employment

Jess Gaertner: things, analysis for you or, or

Liz Wolfe: whatever. Just what, where does Enneagram come into this type of thing where you’re trying to figure out what the heck is next?

Oh my

Jess Gaertner: gosh, it is. So I’ll kind of give you a little backstory. For me, I found the Enneagram when I was through my first kind of life transition where I was just like, what do I wanna do? Who am I? There was a lot of not only transitions professionally, but , In my family and just in our lives.

And I’ve always been a personality test. , I mean, this is probably not pc, but junkie. I will any anyone that comes across my inbox. Yes, yes. I’m an aficionado. Like I know my Harry Potter house. I know my ugly sweater type, all of that. Um, I’ll take it. What is

Liz Wolfe: your Harry Potter house? Should I guess?

Jess Gaertner: Yeah, go ahead and guess. Is it Hufflepuff? No, it’s Raven Claw.

Liz Wolfe: No, it’s Gryffindor. No, it’s not Slytherin. It’s,

Jess Gaertner: I have gotten Slytherin No so many times and I don’t understand it. , I don’t know if it’s just like, maybe I just don’t know myself. But Slitherin, what about you? Have you

Liz Wolfe: taken? No, but now I’m gonna, I feel like maybe Raven Claw would be, I think I’d like to be a Raven Claw.

I think that’s where I would fit in best. I could see that, but I feel like it’s Slitherin too.

Jess Gaertner: That you’re, that

Liz Wolfe: you would get slither in. I bet now that you, if you got slither in, then I’m definitely gonna get slither

Jess Gaertner: in. I think. I think, and I see this in both of us, we can get a little, break the rules when it’s the right time of that.

And that could be Gryffindor. Now we’re just, no, that’s Gryffindor. That’s a hundred percent. That’s Gryffindor. I can get a little feisty. I think with people we can be pure evil. Yeah, pure evil. Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Okay. You love personality tests? I don’t, I used to not love personality tests cuz I used to think, don’t tell me who I am.

 I don’t wanna pigeonhole myself. But

Jess Gaertner: yeah, that is something that I talk about all the time when I give about the Ingram because there are certain numbers that will gravitate to work, kind of resistance. Mm-hmm. Of doing something like the Ingram because again, they don’t wanna be put into a box.

So that’s interesting to note. We’re gonna circle back around to that. Um, but so the, the thing that I don’t love about a lot of personality tests is that I feel like it’s just you take a quick quiz and then it spits out the answer, and then it’s supposed to tell you all about yourself. And then, and then what, like you can talk about it at parties and like, it, it never actually felt like I could apply this to my life and actually grow from it.

It was just like, oh, I’m in, I don’t even remember now. My Myers-Briggs, I think I’m like an I N T P. Um, I don’t remember either. So, but yeah, so I loved those tools, but I never actually took the information and applied it. And so I found the anagram, I can’t even remember how. And the first thing it helped me with was understanding myself.

And so that’s what people always ask me, like, what’s the anagram? And for me, it’s a tool. It’s not like the only tool. I’m not one of those people that’s like, the anagrams gonna solve all your problems. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think it is a tool, and it’s not like a substitute for therapy therapy in my opinion or anything like that, but, It’s a tool for self-awareness and empathy in relationships.

So it’s two parted, two-part two parted. And the first part, I think the crucial part is the self-awareness because a lot of times people will enter into these things like, I wanna learn about my significant others so I can make them the way that I

Liz Wolfe: want them to be so I can understand why they’re so terrible and teach them. Yes.

Jess Gaertner: Um, and I think first and foremost, it’s like we, the only person we really have control over is ourself. And that’s where that self-awareness comes over, comes into play, and um, the empathy comes second because yeah, after you start to dive into yourself, you can then start to look at the people around you and be like, oh, we don’t, we are different because we see the world in a different way.

We respond in a different way. And that’s just, it’s not because they don’t like me or because. Whatever that you’ve created in your mind, it’s just that their perspective on the world is completely different than mine, and that’s okay. And so it’s kind of starts that process of just empathizing understanding and being able to respond in a way that’s healthy for yourself.

Liz Wolfe: It’s like putting things into context, and I’ve used some Enneagram, the Enneagram website has the relationships, the dynamics between different numbers, which I’ve used several times in interactions with friends and with my husband, just to kind of see, oh, okay, yeah, I see that happening.

And that’s, that’s a function of they feel this way. It’s like when the eye doctor, you know, you’re at the optometrist and they’re like, one or two, one or two. It’s not, there’s no right answer. It’s just the lens that you’re seeing most clearly through and everybody sort of has a different lens.

Jess Gaertner: Absolutely. That’s like exactly how I describe it. It’s like I have, I’m an Ingram nine for anyone that knows and we’ll kind of dive into those. But like I’m wearing little Ingram nine glasses. So everything that’s happening, in the world, world events or even within my family, things that are happening, I’m seeing them through a very particular peaceful peacemaker lens where that’s my ultimate goal in all things, for the most part.

Um, where my husband, who’s an engram five, that’s the investigative thinker, is not seeing them in the same way at all. And so now that I understand that, it just makes life a lot simpler. And it’s not that, I don’t want to say the Enneagram doesn’t give you it, it’s not an excuse for bad behavior. So it’s not like, well, I’m just a Enneagram eight and I’m always gonna be aggressive and people just need to get used to it, blah, blah, blah.

, that’s not what it is. It’s more like, oh, this is what I do, this is how I am, this is how I move through the world. Can I modulate that in certain circumstances, , to make , what I want to get across more successful? , can I be more aware of how people receive me? Of course you can. So you can. It’s not saying to change yourself or to excuse your behavior, it is just that awareness around it makes it easier to then make a decision if you want to or need to change.

Liz Wolfe: It’s reality. It’s, we might wanna say, I’m not gonna. It’s not, you’re saying you’re not gonna change yourself because of what you know, but it’s a matter of being able to contextualize how all of these bajillions of interactions and dynamics that exist in the world all day, every day, how those are sort of firing off when you enter, when you enter that space.

Yeah, it’s, no, no man is an island. We all have interactions and different things going on around us all the time and to have some perspective on how, like you said, how you’re being received and how you might be receiving others really bring so much more like empathy and compassion into the picture. And so much of the time we need that.

We need to be able to give other people grace and give ourselves grace as well. And this has definitely been the catalyst for me on that, on that level, even though I was so resistant to personality testing before this definitely got me. And you know, I wanted to ask you, this is one thing that was so, it’s so low.

What’s low investment to, to learn your Enneagram type, the actual Enneagram test is 12 bucks, which by the way, you really shouldn’t go on the internet and take some random, what’s your Enneagram test for free? You really need to take the, the test. Test, right? Ready? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jess Gaertner: The ready, I mean, there are some good free options, but in terms of like the gold standard, the ready R H E T I, yeah.

Is $12. It’s, it’s the gold standard, so

Liz Wolfe: yeah. It’s so worth it., every once in a while I hear somebody be like, well, I’m a five, a six and an eight, and I’m like, no, you’re not. You took an in, in the internet test and it gave you a percentage of your personality. You can’t be more than one. You can have wings.

You can’t be three different Enneagram types.

Jess Gaertner: Totally. Yeah. I never, no, that’s, that’s a common mistake too. I think when I first started, I was like, I’m an engram. I actually, and so this is another thing we can kind of talk about the testing aspect of it. Another thing I really love about the Enneagram is that the test is only one small part of it.

It actually. The process of really, really honing in on your actual true number is where the magic is. So it’s not as simple as just answering 300 questions and then it spits out exactly what you are. It gives you a range, and then from there you kind of have to do further work because, um, you can have three numbers that are like very, very close together, percentage wise, and you’ve gotta do the work to dig in.

I mistyped myself for probably about six months to a year. All of my tests were telling me that I was an Enneagram three. And while I certainly like, resonate with a lot of that because I’m a nine and we’re connected, um, I’m connected to the three. Um, I just, a lot of the times when we’re talking about the core fear and core desire of that number, I was like, it’s not, it’s not a connection for me.

Like I don’t feel that, I don’t feel like that’s the why I do what I do. And so it’s, it’s interesting and I just wanna throw that out there that you might. It might take you a while to really land on your actual primary number because that process of diving in is where you actually, it’s just where the magic happens.

So take that with the, take the test results with a grain of salt. Some other pointers for taking the test. You wanna answer the questions as you have been most of your life. And so not just how you’re feeling in the moment. So for instance, if you open up the test and maybe right before you had had a meeting with your boss and it didn’t go well, the way that you’re gonna be answering the questions that it’s asking you is gonna be radically different than if you’re in just a nice calm, you know, normal kind of homeostatic state.

Um, and so I always advise people to think about the questions in terms of how you’ve been most of your life. , and then even deeper would be like a place in time where you had the least responsibilities to other people. Because I feel like, especially as women, as we start to, you know, maybe we enter into a partnership, a marriage, and then we have kids, the, our identities, the way that we see ourself, the way we respond to people and things, um, can radically shift.

And that’s, that’s just the way it is. And so if we’re answering the questions as we are kind of in this identity that we’ve created, or this identity that we’ve been put into it, it may really skew the test results.

Liz Wolfe: Tell me if this makes sense. So I, I am pretty 99% solid that I’m an Enneagram six in particular because I align so much with the basic fear and basic desire.

However, if I, and I think I took the test. I can’t remember when I took the test, but I certainly had at least one kid. But if I were to answer all those questions, through the filter of being a very anxious parent, sort of lost in the throes of anxiety, I probably would’ve been, I probably would’ve thought, well, I’m a five because I’m just like super analytical and I can’t remember what the basic fear and basic desire are, but I totally could have maybe mistyped that way.

But six, I most align with the basic fear and basic desire, but my five wing is just ridiculously strong. I have no. No even inkling, not a shred of a seven wing, but I am a full on six with a really strong five wing. So can we talk about wings really quickly?

Jess Gaertner: Oh, absolutely. So that’s another thing when people kind of say like, I don’t need to put into a box and like, there’s no way that you can type me.

Like I’m not one of nine types of people. There’s a, you know, billions of people in the world. I love that the Enneagram has these things like wings and arrows and subtypes. You know, it’s, it’s very complex. Um, but the wings is one of the basic ways in which we allow for a range of individuality with within a primary number.

So the wings, again, this is like when people first kind of start diving in, they’re like, I’m a nine wing six, and it’s like, you can’t be a nine wing six, but the wings are the numbers to either side of your primary number and the wings are, I kind of like, think about it visually as a tool belt. So you’re a six and then you’ve got your five little tool bag over here, and then you’ve got your.

Seven tool bag over here. And these are ways in which you can pull from those wing numbers to just add spice to your personality. So, , they exist on a spectrum and they can change over time. They can change minute to minute, you know, hour to hour, day to day, season to season. So you may feel right now in this particular time in your life, you have like literally no Enneagram seven to you.

However, given different circumstances, you may see yourself dip more into that Enneagram seven, like fun, like I think of you with Van life. Um, like I don’t, I think that that would be a very hard thing for most sixes to enter into.

Liz Wolfe: Which is why we are waffling, not we are waffling hard. And we took our first van trip and then we were like, let’s just stay in the cabins at the RV park.

Yes, you’re doing Vanlife

Jess Gaertner: light right now and trying so hard. Very, very typical for me, what I would say of an Instagram stick that’s like, yeah, we gotta make sure we have all the contingency plans. Like we got the cabin just in case and we’ve ended up staying there, but we have this option to experience this stuff.

And you’ve planned probably you’ve thought through all the different things that could go wrong, what you might need. That’s a very Enneagram six thing. But it’s also, uh, it kind of part of that Enneagram seven is like, this is fun, this is a unique adventure. Like this is a chance for me to kind of step into that Enneagram seven ness.

So just consider that, you know, like. Could it be that

Liz Wolfe: my, my, uh, basic, my basic fear and basic Desi, what is my basic desire? It’s like to be supportive. I can’t remember what it is, like I, the exact

Jess Gaertner: words to be supportive to, um, let me pull it up. I don’t wanna miss anything here, but it’s to have support, guidance in security.

Yes. That is the engram six ness.

Liz Wolfe: Okay. So maybe there’s a little bit of like the sickness six. The sickness, the sickness, the sickness in that like I want to sort of do for others and like have my kids like me and ha like I will do that. I will tap into that seven where I’m like, we’re going to wherever and we’re gonna do this, this, and this.

 My daughter wants to do all that stuff and I want her to support me and back me as a mom so I can tap into that seven wing and be like, we’re going, yeah, we’re gonna go, we’re going. Totally okay, fine.

But that’s not your

Jess Gaertner: default mode, that’s why you’re not a seven. No, but because you have access to that as your wing, it’s, it might be easier for you to tap into that kind of like experimental, like let’s try this adventure thing than it would be for say, a three or you know, some other number that’s not necessarily connected to the seven.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. . I can do it on behalf of others when I think it will make them love me and support. Yeah.

Jess Gaertner: I mean, and that is, I mean that’s, that’s sickness Six. Sickness. The sickness. I really do love my engram sixes. I keep, I, that is like such a, a slip of the tongue there. The engram sickness.

Take this out. Bloopers.


Sorry. Choked on my hair. That’s the, I don’t even know what we’re saying now.

Liz Wolfe: I don’t know this Thisness. It’s okay. I have another question for you. Totally different. Totally. Obviously we’ll never get, we will never figure all of this out in the time span of an hour, but I love the enneagram so much, and this is one of the things that I have seen reflected in so many parts of my life with so many of my relationships.

Like I buy into it wholeheartedly to the point that I’ve never actually done any research on the origins of it or where, I mean, where it came from. Even my therapist at one point was talking about another colleague of hers who was very Enneagram focused as a tool like you. You called it a tool. Mm-hmm.

So where did this whole thing

Jess Gaertner: come from? We could really dive into this because that’s like a whole tome in and of itself, but in a nutshell, it’s basically like a combination of a lot of different schools of thought. , there’s some, so a lot of, like, Christ, I don’t know if we should go there.

Liz Wolfe: Um, we can go there. This is one thing that makes it interesting to me and I, I’ll throw something else out there. I don’t know if you know this or not, but I have been going through, the, the Creighton method training, this basically natural fertility tracking system that also.

Goes into a na ppro, which is natural procreative technology, which is what I used for my second. Na ppro doctors who are really big into progesterone supplementation. Their threshold for adequate progesterone in pregnancy is higher than the mainstream, lab ranges, , are.

So it’s this whole system of tracking and it is fascinating. It’s extremely accurate, it’s very compelling and it provides a ton of insight that we generally don’t have, particularly in mainstream medicine. They’re even like na pro surgeons. It’s really extraordinary what they’ve been able to do to people.

And you and I, I think, have a mutual friend who was able to conceive and have a healthy pregnancy after many, many miscarriages because of this system. And it. Is 100%. Like it grew out of like the Catholic church, it’s a Catholic thing. You, I, in order to get into this, start this training, I had to like get in touch with this Catholic lady and this whole church thing and they’re like, is your husband?

So there’s a lot of Cath Catholic stuff around it, but my philosophy on it is if it’s useful and it’s the only thing out there that is doing this and nobody else is doing it, then I am not going to be like, no, can’t learn from you. Right, right. That’s just ridiculous. So I’m, you know, go for it. I think it’s fine.

Jess Gaertner: Yeah. Well, and, and either way you spin it, people from either sides of the religious, like is, can have some sort of criticism about the origin of the engram or the use of it. So really it’s a com, like a, just a combination of ideas and information from everything from mysticism to Kabbalah to just, I mean, Christianity.

Yeah. I mean, there’s so much that ha like kind of makes it up that it’s hard to really say exactly where it comes from that, you know, there are like, um, certain people within the anagram community that kind of bled the charge in terms of like solidifying the body of knowledge like Riso and Hudson and Suzanne Stabile, who’s very popular and I’m sure I’m missing some people off the top of my head.

But the short answer is that nobody really knows exactly, but it is, it’s just a mixture of a bunch of different schools of thought. Um, and that’s not super helpful. But I think when people think about whether it’s useful or not, it’s just a tool. It’s an in information. And if it is helpful for you and it resonates for you, then, then utilize it.

Like I, I just. I’m of the same school of thought. When you’re describing the, the Naro stuff, it’s just like, I, I don’t really consider it from that viewpoint other than like, is this gonna help me and other people? Right. Yeah. That kind of guides

Liz Wolfe: me. And in addition to that, I feel like in general there are nuggets to be found all over the place, whether that’s in nutrition and eating or lifestyle or parenting.

Oftentimes we want to buy wholesale into one philosophy, but what I’ve found over the years, and this is probably why it’s so hard for me to niche down, it’s, there’s a little bit of truth in so many different places, and I, you have to sort of test assess whether something is right for you, how it works in your life, because we’re also different.

So I’m actually very much drawn to something that pulls useful information and ways of thinking out of various. Sometimes disparate, but sometimes similar philosophies. Like you said, a lot of this exists on a spectrum, but I found that actu, I find that to be a, a plus an asset versus sort of a tick in the, you know, in the, in the negative column.

Jess Gaertner: Totally. And this, and not even just to igram, but I feel like this makes life sometimes difficult for people like you and I who are like, I don’t know it. Sometimes I’d be like, it would be easier if I was just like, this is the dogma and this is how we’re gonna live our life. And if , this is the way, um, but I just don’t view the world that way, you know?

And it’s, it’s sometimes difficult. And to tie it back into the engram for me as a nine, one of the, the kind of core things about being a nine is the ability to see all sides and the ability to. And this is a not necessarily a good thing in all instances, but we kind of lose our own perspective.

Like it’s hard for me to have a strong opinion about something, , and to know exactly how I stand on a lot of things because I’m like, well, it’s all devil’s advocate stuff and I feel like sometimes sixes can, can be that way. Yes. And we are actually tied together, um, nine, six, and three. And so it makes sense that we might share some of that underlying, just the way we view the world in that way.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. Yeah. That makes total sense. And you said your husband, what’d you say your husband was? He’s a five. Hard five. A five, okay. A hard five. My husband is a nine. Okay. And the, I, I think the relationship between six, I mean, all the relationships are interesting, but do you, do you consult with people on relationships between certain Enneagram types?

Jess Gaertner: Oh yes. I’ve done

Liz Wolfe: yes, yes. Fix my marriage real quick. I

Jess Gaertner: chat through that all day. I think it’s fascinating. And I have done like Several sessions with partners and they’re radically different. Um, and it’s just so enlightening. And it’s not, again, it’s not couples therapy, but it’s more just like, , here, let’s learn about your partner and let’s learn about actually where they’re coming from and why they might be doing this, the things that they’re doing.

So anyways, all that to say, pick my brain, if I can help, I will. Hmm. Hmm. Do you have any specific things? And also because you, you feel strongly that he’s a nine, I have a special. You know, understanding of that. Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: I feel very strongly that he and I are frequently in a competition for who can be the most passive aggressive and the most put upon in our relationship.

We both know it. I mean, this is something we can totally communicate on, and it’s sort of a quirk and we joke about it now, but it really is, like, I, I, I will never miss an opportunity to be a martyr when it comes to him. I will sacrifice, like, like I will sacrifice on behalf of others, but I want him to know how much I have sacrificed and this, so this morning, this is kind of funny, so I totally, I totally missed an opportunity to be a martyr and he, he won that like battle this morning.

I was so ticked, so I went to work out early and I had mistaken, when I was supposed to be back so that he could go work out. So I walk in the door and he’s like, it’s still dark outside. So he kind of comes outta the shadows. Outta the shadows and he’s like, well, I don’t have time to work out now, so I’m just gonna.

And I cut him off and I was like, you do have time to work out you. You said that you didn’t have to leave until 7 55. At six 30 you have an hour and then you can go. He’s like, well, no, I don’t have time to shower. I was like, I can shower and get ready in 25 minutes. And he was just like, okay. So he just walks out the door to go do whatever he was trying to tell me he was gonna go do in the first place.

And I was like, shoot. I just missed an opportunity to be like really benevolent and be like, I am so sorry. I am so sorry that you think you can’t get ready for work in an hour and 20 minutes when I can get completely ready for my entire day, including showering and drying my hair in 25 minutes. And I literally set a timer.

Like I was like, I’m counting down. I can get ready in 25 minutes. So this little interaction was like two very passive aggressive people who are also very tired battling for the upper ground. And we do this not all the time, but at our worst. Mm-hmm. That is like our battle. It’s like a passive aggressive nicey meanie. Competition.

Jess Gaertner: And it’s interesting because, so passive, passive aggression is one of the hallmarks of a nine. Of an nine because one of our things is we don’t get mad. I don’t get mad, I’m not angry. We’re go with the flow, we’re super chill. But that’s not actually true because everyone gets mad, right?

And so instead of just being like, Hey, I’m upset, we’re gonna like stuff it down until it comes out in this weird, passive aggressive. And especially if your husband might have a strong connection to his eight wing, sometimes it’s not just passive aggressive, it’s like straight on, , I’m just gonna explode at you because I’ve been trying to be nice this whole time and now I can’t take it anymore.

So, no, he never does that. What’s the, what would the one wing then be? The one

Jess Gaertner: is the, the perfectionist or the reformer? Um, so they’re, you know, they actually, so they’re all tied eight signs and ones, they’re a part of the gut triad and they all deal with anger. Um, just in different ways. So this is one of the hallmarks of them is that they all have anger.

They just experience it in different ways. The one represses it and it seeps out as criticism of self or others. . So if he has a strong tie to that one r one wing, that’s, that might be how it comes out more than I think so

Liz Wolfe: probably self-criticism. Yeah. So,

Jess Gaertner: yeah, it’s very, very interesting. And the thing about the sixes is that y’all are tied together.

You’re linked, you have this really, really beautiful, , experience in that you both can really, when you’re healthy, can really connect because you understand one another on a way that not a lot of the other numbers do, cuz you’re not, they’re not connected in that way, but when you’re unhealthy it’s like, oh, I know exactly what to do and how to say it.

And just, I know what to do to just make this, , to push the buttons. And so that’s what you have to be careful of. Yeah. When you’re that kind of connected. And I know that. You guys are wonderful couple, you love each other, see that. , but that’s just the kind of the shadow side of us, which the Indian Graham kind of talks about a lot.

Like there are beautiful, wonderful things about all of the numbers, but we would be remiss not to talk about the things that we do within our numbers that don’t serve us. And that’s those the unhealthy qualities because you really have to start seeing that and talking about it. And learning about it through the Enneagram allows you to recognize it more often.

And I think that’s, that’s really what I want people to understand about the engram. It’s not that like you are judging yourself. I’ll talk about myself for, for instance, as an anagram nine, for being passive aggressive and sometimes apathetic and just like whatever. And they can be sometimes lazy.

Um, these are all my unhealthy qualities. It’s not the, that’s not a value-based judgment on those behaviors. It’s just a recognition. That, that’s how I can be. And now, because I know that about myself, it’s like when I spend too long in this like sloth mode, it’s a red flag for me that , something’s not right.

Like I know this is a normal behavior response for me, but I’m kind of wallowing in it and I’m feeling like I’m not moving past this. I’m stuck. And that is a red flag for me to, you know, get therapy, go for a walk, talk to a friend, use these tools in my tool belt to move beyond the unhealthy behavior.

Liz Wolfe: One of the things I was thinking about as you were speaking was there, there was a time when I felt like what I needed was just blind self-love, where I was just like, this is who I am. Take it or leave it. But diving into the Enneagram and being in the stage of life, I think I’m in, I don’t remember what words you used, but I’m in a stage of self-exploration.

I’m figuring out what pieces I can move around without completely destroying the foundation and the quality of my life, but both physically nutritionally, , movement wise and also mentally, emotionally, psychologically, what pieces I can move around to Just be thoughtful and assess, not the defects, it’s not a value judgment, but just places where there’s room to optimize, be better, be more aware, that type of thing.

And that’s why I like this so much because it’s not, like you said, it’s not a value judgment, it’s just a, a means of being willing to explore and decide what might need to. You know, bring your attention to, and what, what things can sort of continue to exist as they are.

Jess Gaertner: Yeah, and it’s an, it’s an observation of behavior.

I say that all the time. We’re observing the behavior. We’re not actually saying that you are a lazy sloth. We’re saying that that’s the behavior you’re exhibiting and the why is tied to the core fear and the core desire of your specific number. So another thing to note is two numbers can actually look a lot, very, very similar on the outside, based on observable behavior.

But the reason that they’re behaving that way or why they do what they’re, they they’re doing can be radically different. So for instance, nines and twos, often mistype. Two is the helper, nine is the peacemaker. And they often mistype because they both. You know, care about people care about keeping homeostasis in relationships.

Relationships are important to them, but the why they’re doing tho those behaviors are radically different. Nines just want peace. They’re saying yes, and they’re offering their assistance and help, not because, and it’s not to say that I don’t wanna help the people that I love, but I would rather be unbothered by that obligation.

, but I will say yes, because to me that’s important so that we keep this peaceful relationship intact and we keep my peace intact. And whereas a two, it is almost just like they have to help, they have to insert themselves, even if they’re not asked, to provide assistance, to be there for someone.

Their relationships are one of the most defining factors about them. And if those relationships are in jeopardy, their sense of self is in jeopardy. So the behavior on the outside is the same. We’re both saying yes to help a friend move, which. At this, at my, at almost 40, I’m like, I’m not helping anyone move.

No, we don’t help people move anymore. You get a moving company, I’m going gonna do the same. Let’s just agree. Um, but I would say yes because it’s like, I feel like I have to say yes, whereas a two is already calling. , can I bring pizza? When can I show up? Like how can I, how can I help you? My cousin’s

Liz Wolfe: best friend’s, mom has a truck, I’ll

Jess Gaertner: bring it.

Yes, totally. Yes. I really want that to be something that people understand that, and that’s why I oftentimes will say, you know, a lot of times we wanna like type our partners or type our friends or type our close family members. And you may have a good understanding, like you may have an inkling, but at the same time there’s no way that you can know the inner motivation about why someone’s doing, doing what they’re doing.

And so that’s why it’s really up to the person to do that self-work and understand why. Is

Liz Wolfe: this something that we are born with or is this something that develops over time?

Jess Gaertner: So traditional engram wisdom is, is that you’re born with it. So for instance, you can take an example of like two identical twins born to the same family,

Liz Wolfe: and we all know that just identical twins generally are born into the same thing. Right?

Jess Gaertner: You know what I’m saying? You can edit that out, right? Yeah, yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Absolutely. Liz, editor, edit that out.

Jess Gaertner: Just kidding. Um, that’s like, no, I’m not gonna go there. Uh, I have a, a, a, a friend, well, I guess I am going there. She’s a, she’s a part of a boy girl twin like duo. And people always ask her, are y’all identical twins?

And she’s like, no, we’re not identical. So anyways, twin tangent. What was I saying? Oh, they’re born right. They, they really experienced the same. Nurturing environment, the same womb growth, the same kind of parental little Ty trauma or big T trauma. They’re experiencing most of the time the same life experiences, however you can see.

And it’s just, it kind of common sense doesn’t necessarily mean they’re both gonna react in the same way. They’re both gonna behave in the same way. Oftentimes, you’re gonna see them go in radically different directions as they start to kind of step into their own identity. So the thought is that we are kind of born with this lens, right?

And there are things that will affect how it is, how are, how is displayed like, um, externally. But that the way we’re viewing the world is kind of this intrinsic thing. And so the things that can change. So it’s not like, oh, I was a nine, but now I’m a four. Um, you are a nine, but the way you’re expressing yourself might be different.

So for instance, as a nine in times of health, actually on the outside, I’m going to express the really positive behaviors of a type three. So I’m gonna look like an Enneagram three to the naked eye. Um, just the way I’m acting and the way I’m like moving through the world, that doesn’t mean that I am an Enneagram three.

It just means that kind of I’m in this really healthy place and I’m exhibiting those behaviors. However, when I’m in a time of stress, um, or unhealth, I’m actually gonna take on the not so great qualities of you mm-hmm. Of it. Mm-hmm. Than six. And that’s where I’m gonna start to step into some more anxieties, some more spiraling thoughts.

Um, a lot more worry about what’s gonna happen and, you know, those sorts of things. And so I’m not an Ingram six, but I’m exhibiting those behaviors of an Ingram six. But the motivation is different because I just want peace. Like mm-hmm. That’s why it’s triggering those behaviors, um, cuz I’m trying to achieve peace and avoid conflict.

Liz Wolfe: And so, but the thing that remains stable is your basic fear, basic desire. So maybe, maybe that’s a good starting point for people even before they take the test, they can go to the Enneagram Institute. Maybe just look at the different basic fears and basic desires and see maybe what resonates or do you recommend people start with something else when it comes to the Enneagram?

Jess Gaertner: No, I mean, I thinka test is a great starting place and then you can kind of take those top numbers, um, top three to five numbers, and then I would look at the core fears and core desires because if you do not resonate with the core fear and core desire of your primary number, you are not that number.

And it’s not that, you know, there’ll be different descriptions of the core fear and core desire. I would say it’s not like a hundred percent everything has to match, but for the most part, you want it to, to feel very strongly connected to the core fear and core desire. So that would kind of be the, the second step after kind of identifying those top numbers.

Yes, and you can dive into all of them because sometimes I’ve learned a a lot more about myself and it was easier for me to hone in on the Engram nine that I wasn’t Engram nine just by reading through all of ’em and knowing exactly what I was not right. So like I could easily spot that, I am not an Engram eight.

, I am not, , an Enneagram. I mean, part of, part of the thing about nines is we actually kind of resonate with all of the numbers. So that’s what, if you are having trouble res, figuring out where you are, you can see yourself in all of the numbers. You might be an Engram nine, but there are certain numbers that I’m just like, no, for sure.

Not that at all. Yeah. Yeah. , and so that can be helpful too, just to kind of go through all of them.

Liz Wolfe: Okay. Well, I’ve already had you for an hour and I can’t believe that, but I actually can believe that because it’s, it’s pretty easy for you and I to fill an hour. So, where do you think people should start with, if they wanna look at what you’ve written about the Enneagram or where do, where do you recommend people go to, to learn more?

Jess Gaertner: Yeah, so I would start with the RHETI if you can. It’s, like I said, the test is $12. my An Ingram Basics course, that’s super affordable. Lots of extras it’s also gonna include, I do a, a lot of talks with, entrepreneurs, . People are often asking me like, how can we apply the Ingram to work? , which we didn’t even really touch on at all.

Ooh. , so extras about the Enneagram and work, and extras about the Enneagram and health and wellness. , and that’s kind of like a broad term, but there are certain things that we see within the types that are very particular struggles to that number when it comes to, things like just taking care of yourself, movement, the way you feel yourself, the way you do self-care.

 I mean, I may be biased, but I think it’s a good place to start. I like to make it simple, so if it feels overwhelming and it feels complicated and complex cuz there’s a lot of information, , then this would, that would be I think a good, next step after you take the test.

Liz Wolfe: Well, part of the reason I wanted to talk to you about this, other than all of the other millions of things that we could have talked about was that you do break things down so beautifully and in such a non-intimidating way. And that’s, that’s why I love to talk to you about anything. But I really do feel like you are, you’re the go-to for this.

Jess Gaertner: I mean, I could talk for hours, so we barely scratched the surface.

I don’t even think we went over the actual numbers or anything, so No, I’m so

Liz Wolfe: bad. I spent 10 minutes talking about Dax Shepherd.

Jess Gaertner: No, this is great. I feel like this is enough to kind of dip your toe in. If you’re intrigued by what we’ve shared already, then you’re gonna, there’s so much more to it, so, yeah.

Yeah. You’re gonna love, it’s so fun. Yeah. Okay. Thank you friend. Alright, friend. Talk soon. Bye.

Thanks for listening to the new Balanced Bites Podcast! Before you shut down your podcast app, PLEASE take a moment to subscribe and leave a review! It’s a small thing you can do that I appreciate more than you can imagine! And speaking of what we can do for each other, if YOU have a question you’d like to have tackled on this podcast or an interview you’d like to hear, submit the details at Let’s keep unpacking, unraveling, contextualizing and nuance-ing the important questions together so we can be empowered, informed, active participants in our own health and happiness.

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