Balanced Bites Podcast #411: Intermittent fasting: a gut check with Michelle Shapiro, RD

Intermittent fasting with Michelle Shapiro

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Episode #411 Topics:

Types of fasting

Why do people fast, really?

Who is “eligible” for fasting

Male biohacking vs. female fasting

Circadian eating

Coddling vs. compassion

The Wolfe Protocol

Transcripts are automatically generated, so may not always accurately reflect the words/phrases used or the individuals speaking.

Welcome to the new Balanced Bites Podcast! I’m your host, Liz, a nutritional therapy practitioner and best selling author bringing you candid, up-front, myth-busting and thought-provoking conversations about food, fitness, and life.

Remember:  The information in this podcast should not be considered personal, individual, or medical advice.

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Intermittent fasting: a gut check with Michelle Shapiro, RD

411 Michelle Fasting

[00:00:00] About today’s interview and it’s not really an interview it’s show. I believe. Number four with Michelle Shapiro, who is a registered, Integrative and functional dietician out of New York city. She’s one of my favorite people in the world to talk to about nutrition. If you don’t know who she is, go back and listen to the first three episodes with her on balanced bites. She’s got her own. Podcast as well called quiet the diet, but I’ve already done the full intro multiple times. And what I’ll just say now is if you hear Michelle and find her compelling, go to Michelle Shapiro, R and follow her, follow her on Instagram at Michelle Shapiro RD. She’s amazing. And today I brought her on because I wanted to talk about fasting. 

And she said, yes, of course. And as usual, we went on multiple tangents as we spoke here. And if you’re here because you want a how to on fasting, this, isn’t the place for you. This is the place for you. If what you need. And I think most of [00:01:00] us need this when embarking on any kind of intervention or lifestyle change. 

A gut check.

That’s what this episode really serves as is a gut check. And I think it’s really, really valuable. We talk about motivations around fasting. We talk about the different iterations of fasting that you may not be familiar with. We talk about ways to do it. That might be beneficial, that might not be beneficial. 

And to whom these interventions might be beneficial and to whom they might not. So I loved this episode. I love this chat as always. And I also want to say for those of you who have been with balanced vice for a long, long time, one of the things I know many of you enjoyed was the banter, the conversation between myself. 

And my long-time co-host Diane. We used to just chit chat at the beginning about anything and everything. And the great thing about Michelle is that she is totally open to that. So as usual, this podcast with Michelle opens with a little bit of chit-chat between us, and I hope you enjoy that as well. 

From the numbers the show brings in. I definitely think Michelle is a fan favorite, but I’d like to hear more on, I [00:02:00] definitely like to hear more about what you would like me to talk to Michelle about. So let me know and enjoy this episode. 

You won’t believe what’s happening today. I’m not wearing black, I’m wearing white. It’s crazy.

There’s this, there’s a story about this sweater, specif. , which is that I went to California to go on two podcasts and I was very aware because they were in Santa Monica. Very cool. Chase tuning Dr. G. They’re like super cool. Sure. So I was like coming in with my black blazer thinking I’m doing the New York thing and I was like, it’s like May in California.

So I had to go immediately to a store and buy something that was more casual. Cause New Yorkers are so hardcore that we’re wearing like heels on podcasts, like no chill whatsoever. So I had to get this sweater. So this is like my, it’s a chill white sweater, you know? It’s cool. Well not only that, but your hair’s like tussled.

It’s not intentional. I just only blew out the front. It’s just wet. Honestly. More than it . Well, same, same, same. Your hair look amazing as always. Are we starting every episode talking [00:03:00] about your hair? Cause I really want to. Yes, let’s just do that. And we’re like, we’ll just get used to this. So we’re recording already.

We just start recording immediately. The world needs to bear witness to our conversations. I think. and we’re just like, chill cool girls and white sweaters. You know, it’s, it’s like we’re just wearing, we’re hanging out. We’re Kansas City girls. We’re hanging out. We’re, I mean, we are East Coast, Kansas City girls, and that one I’ll never let go of either East Coast.

Well, I went to school in St. Louis for a while. This is neither here nor there, but I went to school in St. Louis for a while to a boarding school actually in high school, and it was, so it’s three hours. To the right, to the east of Kansas City, but it is like full on East Coast vibe. Like they Wow. No. Yeah.

Is it cause a lot of kids come from the east coast to go to school? Is that why? I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, it was high school so there wasn’t that like, eh, you know, it wasn’t college, but it just felt like people were moving faster and everybody was playing field hockey and I, I don’t know, but field hockey has, that feels East Coast.

It does, doesn’t it? And Canadian ice hockey. Canadian . It’s, again, I’m [00:04:00] getting the too confused. I’m not good at life. Huh? It’s not great. It’s okay. It’s okay. I actually am very in support of just bringing the New York vibe anywhere you go. And I feel like I, I do that too. There, there were, I obviously, I’m not New Yorker, but I do like to wear black.

But there was, so I’m in this, I live in this small community and, which is lovely. And I was on the board, uh, like on a, not a board. I wasn’t on the board. I wasn’t there yet, but I was on this, uh, committee, this committee. And we were facing off, you know, against the, the. C e o of the board and whatever it was.

And so I went full on. I mean, people show up to these things in their yoga pants and I like slicked my hair back. Put it in a low bun or a blazer, high heels, black, head to toe, just to come in and just like knock some people off. You know, their, their blocks. Did you win? I don’t remember. I don’t know that.

I think you won. You won either way. I also, I totally won When you were talking about. Busting into the boardroom. I had this [00:05:00] immediate vision of West Side Story for some reason. That you were like a jet and then you started to describe the outfit and it kind of worked. Like the whole kinda worked. Yeah, exactly.

I just have such an affinity for you New Yorkers. I really do. Sorry I interrupted you. Even affinity for you too. No, it’s, I think I’m just thinking about West Side story more than the average person should . I freaking love West Side story. I think about a lot of really dumb things more than the average person probably should.

But I think that’s part of what makes my personality so delightful. It’s your whole thing is thinking. Yeah. And, and words. That’s your whole, like you have to have excess amounts of them cuz yours are, are very advantageous I feel to your career and who you are. I mean, you gotta have the words, it’s the whole thing.

I don’t know. I think that I’m becoming obsolete fast, becoming obsolete because like we talked about, I’m so nervous about this chat G B T AI thing because literally my only talent is writing and talking and now nobody even needs me to do that anymore. You’re chat G B T can never replace you. It’ll take at least two [00:06:00] years to be able to replace your retired person.

When I say never, I mean about 18 months to replace every part of all of our jobs and lives. But you got 18 months until then, Liz, don’t worry. Well, hopefully we pass some form of universal basic income by that point because I do not intend to try and major in another profession. It’s just not gonna happen.

No, this is your whole thing. This is my whole thing. All right, well, let’s just do as much as we can in the next 18 months, then, shall we? Mm-hmm. . Okay. Let’s get it rocking before they can literally replicate everything and we offer nothing to the world. Let’s do it. Yes. Let’s do it. Okay. Well let’s talk about fasting then, because I think this is something very profound and helpful that we can offer, offer the world.

And this was, this was my idea, but I know your game for it and I’m sure what’s gonna happen is exactly what happened in the comments of one of your recent podcasts. The one with, um, Dr. Lyons, where alo a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot armchair experts and experts will come out of the woodwork and say, how dare you not cover the entire topic [00:07:00] of fasting and everything we know about it in a 62nd clip on Instagram.

Right. Not even the full episode. It’s it’s not Yes. The 62nd clip. Yeah. And that was, that was very interesting. And you handled it beautifully by the. But maybe I’ll put this as the first 62nd clip, is we cannot possibly cover everything in a 62nd clip. So listen to the podcast. This is also, I’m gonna, I’m gonna pay you back off of you.

This is also not medical or nutrition advice. This is two friends having a conversation that we hope feels inspiring or insightful in a relatable way. But this is by no means medical or nutrition advice. So I would recommend people do not get their nutrition information from a 62nd cut of a reel that I didn’t even know was being cut at that point, even though I like the cut.

Um, and I love Gabrielle, so I’ll do any cut she wants. I’ll do, but, um, this is absolutely not medical or nutrition advice at all. Your, uh, skin looked really good in that cut, by the way. Well, thank goodness I did get my makeup professionally done, because again, it was a New York based podcast. I was like, let me go hard.

But I did wear a very oversized blazer, which I don’t feel like behoove me in the, in the comments section. , [00:08:00] I love the blazer. Yeah, it was, it looks, it was cool, but a angularly. I was, I was concerned, but it only, only like one or two fat phobic, hilarious people who I just like, I’ll just immediately block.

I just don’t care. It’s not, it, it’s no skin off my back. But I’m, I’m laughing because I . It’s nice that you like the blazer. It was a, it was a risky choice and, and reflection. I adored the blazer. I adored all of it. And it is, it really is so funny how those people come outta the woodwork. It’s like they’re waiting.

It’s like they’re just waiting for any opportunity. Any bunched up fabric? Any, anything bunched up, FA Any, any, yeah. Oh, so my friend Diana Rogers, who’s a registered dietician, she wrote Sacred Cow. You know her? Oh, Malia. Love her. She went on Joe Rogan and however it is, however people feel about Joe Rogan aside, she got a deluge of fat phobic commentary.

Let’s just lay it out. Also, she’s [00:09:00] completely normal, quote unquote, like normal size as perceived by in society. There’s, yes, she’s, she has not, would never be categorized as overweight or obese or anything like that, that that was the part that I saw her posts about that and I was like, oh my God, no, no one’s safe.

This person who’s literally, what I also wanna make clear about this is just a another, you and I could go on these crazy tangents, but another concept that I think people need to understand about podcasting is like, for instance, I’ve been on 30 guest podcasts and then have my own podcast. The amount that we prepare for these things is a lot.

But you’re also just having conversations. So you’re gonna trip over your words, you’re gonna speak not perfectly in some ways, and people are scrutinizing you. Like you had prepared every word that you’re gonna say in a conversation. And of course there’s editing that can be done and everything like that.

But it’s like, you know, I basically, if we think about it, have even not on my own podcast, been in 30 plus hours of conversations. Yeah. I’m gonna say some stuff that’s not the exact verbiage that resonates with [00:10:00] people or the, not the perfect way. You know, that’s like, it’s just that, that was the unbelievable thing about I I, what I saw from, you know, her experience and from obviously what I see when I go on people’s podcast too.

I’m just like, guys, give everyone a freaking break. Like, yes. You know, Diana’s out here working so hard to spread these messages that are seemingly so controversial where I feel like she has, the signs pretty settled, but she’s doing it to help other people. It’s like, Dude, like, let her just talk. Yes. Stop.

Insulting the way she looks, which is perfectly wonderful, the way she looks. Anyway, it’s ridiculous. Oh, it’s not Kenneth Branna at the Globe Theater in London doing King Lear. It’s like, yes, it’s a podcast. Do you want the content or not? Like Exactly. Yeah. You’re, you’re welcome. Are you not entertained? ? You better be after this.

You better be. Well, let’s talk really quickly about your podcast, because I don’t think we’ve addressed this here on Balanced Bites. You have an amazing podcast. I’ve been working my way through all of the episodes that you’ve put out so far, and [00:11:00] they’re so good. I’m listening to the, um, the carb episode and I can’t remember the gal’s name, but she’s listen legit Rieves.

She’s an incredible P C O S dietician. Incredible. Yes. Yeah. So tell me more about what you’re doing with. So this is the first season of Quiet The Diet, and it’s my first podcast of my own, which was very exciting. And my goal, and I know we’ve talked about this on Two Balanced Bites episodes, is really to bridge that world between the intuitive eating body positivity world and the world where you can actually make intentional health decisions without compromising your relationship with food.

So I, through the podcast, have kind of two different ways that I express those things. One would be talking directly about those topics, and the other would be elevating people’s education about functional nutrition from a really nuanced perspective. So some of the topics are just, I, I did a macronutrient series, so just protein, fat and carbs, but really nitty gritty, you know, very similar to the conversation and style that we have too, which is you have this broader framework and [00:12:00] then you break it down and talk about the concept.

And then my first three episodes were much more about, um, I think like the topics that I. Feel so, uh, differently about, than other people do. So the first one was that body positivity conversation. The second was, how do we approach anxiety from a physiologic lens? These kind of bottom up approached anxiety as opposed to this top down.

Top down, meaning focusing only on kind of these incredible interventions like talk therapy and medications. Not focusing just on the brain, focusing on how our body communicates anxiety to us. And I brought on, ugh, one of my favorite people on planet Earth, Amanda Montalvo, who is, she’s the hormone healing RD on Instagram.

She’s awesome. And she really went through the physiology of anxiety and I kind of laid out my specific mindset around anxiety. And then she substantiated it with the physiology, which was awesome. And the third episode was with this incredible somatic nutrition counselor. Um, she is, she’s a therapist by trade.

Her name’s Stephanie Meron. We talked about binge eating, kind of how I feel that [00:13:00] the current model of binge eating, you know, leaves a little bit to be desired. I would say I’m very biased, but. The episodes that have happened so far really are gonna be probably some of my favorite that I ever make, um, because it’s, it’s the stuff that I think is so foundational and important for people to know.

I loved the episode on binge eating. She just, her, her depth of knowledge and her ability to articulate it, which is something that I appreciate, something I appreciate about you and is something that I appreciate in a podcaster, is the ability to articulate the information in just a really digestible way.

And she absolutely did that, and you always do that a as well. So I loved that episode. She’s, she’s a gift to the world. I, I, there’s no other way to explain Stephanie. She’s unbelievable. And I think, I think again, we kind of, I laid this foundation of kind of what the current model of binge eating is, and then she came in with the, the nervous system explanations of what’s happening during a binge that I think will leave people hopefully with all of this feeling less alone and like maybe there’s more approaches.

They haven’t tried to all of these [00:14:00] things and that’s why they’re failing. Maybe it’s not them who’s failing, but the approaches are failing them. The juxtaposition that came to mind when you were speaking just now and when I was listening to that episode is that we tend to, we, the royal, we get detailed about the wrong things.

So I could have told you in college and, and after college when I was struggling a little bit with what I think could probably be turned a little bit of binge eating, I got so detailed and down to the nitty gritty on every quote diet that I would try. I knew everything there was to know about keto. I knew everything there was to know about being a vegan.

Everything there was to know about, uh, the zone diet, all of these different things that I was trying to sort of beat my body into submission. What I never got detailed about. in those moments was the actual physiology of what was going on in my body. 

Obviously there’s a whole mental evolution that needed to happen before I would be able to see things from a more, from a healthier, holistic perspective, but never really bothering to understand what was actually going on in my body, why I wanted to [00:15:00] binge, what that anxiety was from, what that isolation and loneliness was from.

I remember very specifically that it really ramped up when I was living alone in Washington DC I was tired, I was overworked, and I was lonely, and so there were a lot of things going on emotionally that probably played into that, that I never even bothered to look into. I. Your inclination was, how do I make this stop?

And that’s how a lot of people approach binge cheating. So it, it would make sense that your primary instinct wouldn’t be, let’s get to the root cause of this. Mm-hmm. , I don’t even know if at the time those solutions would’ve even availed themselves to you if you had gone down that road. It’s, it’s really hard for us to understand, especially at the time when binge eating is something that feels so shameful for you at that time to have conceptualized or understood that binge eating is like an incredible survival mechanism.

It’s, it’s not intuitive to know that information at all until I say that. And then I think it becomes intuitive or anyone says that and then, then people are like, oh yeah, it made [00:16:00] me feel better. Oh yeah, there was a reason for it. So I think your pathway is very similar to so many other people’s, which is, what the heck do I do to stop this?

Cuz this feels bad and wrong and scary and. When you take away the stigma from it, you actually can see the, the power of binge eating. And not saying that it’s a, a habit that needs to stay with anyone for that reason, but, , there’s, there’s a real preservation need for it. And I understand why that happens to so many people.

And, and this idea of loneliness is something we’ve talked about in other podcasts too. Mm-hmm. , , for sure. So that makes sense. And it also makes me feel very emotional that you felt lonely. I’m glad you don’t anymore. Just wanna tell . You are just, the perfect blend of New York and like sweet and kind. I don’t even know how it works. I think New Yorkers are the, are the kindest people, but not the nicest people. Uhhuh. But I, I do think that if you needed something like I’d rather be lost in New York than lost somewhere else. Because people will actually help you if you need help.

And I think [00:17:00] that it’s a. It’s just, there’s the, the surface level’s hard for New Yorkers. Okay. Like it’s, it would be easier for us to have a conver, many of us to have, obviously it’s a broad generalization and an insane one, but it would be easier, easier for us to have this like incredibly deep 10 hour, like mind bending, soulful conversation over, like talking over coffee.

Like that feels, I feel like a very stressful for New Yorkers and, and that’s where the niceness comes in. But the kindness, I, I think the kindest people I’ve ever known in my life are hardcore New Yorkers. I think maybe that’s why it resonates with me so much, because I am, I am that way. I have the Midwest Yeah.

You know, veil of, you know, always being, I don’t know, accommodating, I guess, or maybe that’s just my en Enneagram number, but just this idea that if we’re gonna go, we’re gonna go deep. I mean, you’re like the deepest, you’re the most narrow and deep person like ever. Yes. You’re, I tried, I’m telling you, you’re, you’re, you’re all heart and, and brand.

Okay. So, what we wanted to talk about today in the world of [00:18:00] fasting, intermittent fasting, compressed eating windows, time-restricted eating, circadian eating, which we’re only gonna skim the surface on today.

But I’m excited to do it because I think at best when we are incorporating things like fasting, we are desiring to promote beneficial adaptations, beneficial physiology, hormesis, autophagy, basically cleaning up the, the cellular debris, the gunk, all of that.

And there’s certainly something to that. We’re trying to push these, these beneficial adaptations, but at the same time, as with everything else, it can certainly become toxic, whether in the way we approach it, , the way it actually ends up, , impacting our lives. So first of all, I guess we should probably define some terms and there’s a couple of different Yes.

Different terms here. So I would like to hear your take on this. I guess fasting versus intermittent fasting. I think that’s pretty, pretty obvious. And then also what a compressed eating window time-restricted eating, circadian [00:19:00] eating looks like to you as a registered dietician. Sure. Yeah. And I think it’s important for us to definitely walk it back when it comes to fasting.

So the, the art of fasting obviously has been adapted by many religions through the millennia and since human existence. So when I think of fasting as a word, I think of any. Time of not eating essentially, right? That’s what fasting is. What people have learned kind of in the health space is that in the absence of consumption, when your digestion and the rest of your body is not focused on, you know, moving those nutrients, absorbing those nutrients, your body can kind of tend to other tasks, and that’s the proposed mechanism for which people feel, um, fasting might benefit them.

That’s one proposed mechanism. The other is also in the absence of carbohydrates, your body will eventually resort to potentially using keto bodies for fuel, which some people feel has advantages for fat loss. , and for other [00:20:00] reasons too, that’s another huge conversation to have and that any type of this, this idea of etic stress, which is that if we apply stress to the body and our body can recover from that stress, we can stand to gain benefits through its resilience and flexibility.

So that’s another reason why I think fasting has become popularized. What we see mostly becoming popularized in in recent times is this intermittent fasting. And one specific style or time restriction is 16 hours of fasting, eight hours of feasting, essentially. So, So much to say. , I would say that what a lot of people have done is this, I would call it like lazy fasting, which is you just kind of skip breakfast.

Mm-hmm. , and, and that’s what I’m seeing a lot now, but terminology wise, you could, some people do a day a week where they don’t eat. Some people do, uh, these time-restricted feeds that you, you know, eat eight hours of the day and you fast 16. What that would look like is basically eating from the hours of 12 to 8:00 PM and not eating the rest of the time.

And again, with [00:21:00] the goal of either, uh, causing this glucose utilization pathway and this and this glycogen breakdown and keto body usage or for promoting this or medic stress and this auto and all these other things. The cellular cleanup, like you said, is the H silent. , you know what I, I call it aura medic stress.

But yeah, , but if I’m not, if I’m wrong, like just completely ignore me. We’ll just use both so that if we have a clip, people won’t yell at us either way. Well, what’s that other word that people, oh my gosh, it’s not history. It’s, man, there’s another word that the H is silent and I always forget, and I always sound history like a dummy history.

Excuse me, it’s Ry. Um, exactly. . Yeah. No, we’ll, see, this is the problem with me always choosing to read things instead of actually listen to them and hear them. So I, I may say hormetic stress and Michelle May say, or medic stress, it’s, I might say hormetic to throw it up. Like I might [00:22:00] do whatever we want. We might, we might throw the whole game off.

We don’t know. You don’t know what words coming out of our mouths. Yeah. I don’t know. Either, either way, it’s, it’s great.

 So I feel like where we went wrong with this, and you alluded to this a second ago, is that number one, people will use this idea of fasting, intermittent fasting, or however you wanna label it. And, and by the way, I throw in there, oftentimes I think these things are born when they, they become popular out of the male biohacking sect, which is just so profoundly different in lifestyle execution than like a woman like me existing in the world.

I think that’s important. And a woman like you versus even a woman like me existing in the world. So this idea of, or medic stress or flexing your resiliency is, is really interesting because the way I think of, if we think of our bodies, A car. Right. And I, I use this example of let’s talk about something like even calories and calories out, right?

The main proponents of calories and calories out are at, who are still saying that’s the only thing that matters. Not saying that [00:23:00] calories aren’t a factor in the equation, like we’ve already talked about, but the people who are saying it’s all about, you know, thermogenesis, like the, that crew is mostly fit men.

That’s who you really see. I mean, this is not statistically known, but visibly what I see all the time, and what I would say is in the case of calories and calories out, if we think of our bodies like a car and our fuel tank is where energy is stored. Let’s say if you put a bunch of fuel in there, calories, and then you run the car, the fuel gets degraded and then you have, right, then you have calories in, we’ll call it calories out.

So the question for us is always not what’s, how much fuel is in the fuel tank? That’s part of my interest, but about 90% of my interest is what’s going on with the rest of the car. Is the car running in the first place? So it’s awesome to say. Let’s pour this fuel in and let’s see how, how long it takes to degrade or to be used.

But the more important question is, is the car even on in the first place? So I think in the case of intermittent fasting, and in the case of [00:24:00] fasting in general, a body that’s under tremendous stress already will not respond to an additional level of stress. So we, we do have a finite amount of tolerable stress and, and then what ends up happening is we start having hormonal havoc happening as a result.

So if your body is an incredibly. Positive shape and your, and your car is running perfectly, you’re very resilient to stress, right? Already your body’s resilient to stress. If you’re a person who’s chronically ill, who’s all my crew? That’s my people. Those are the clients that I work with, the people, my practitioner friends.

That’s my, my crew is the chronically illness and I lo the chronically ill and I love them. And for those people, since the car is not running efficiently, any kind of added stress is just gonna create more problems for people. So we have to really know like, what level of stress are you at already and who are these messages targeting?

Because even if I have a client who comes in really sick and, and leaves our sessions not really sick, their body might be able to tolerate something that they didn’t before. So it’s [00:25:00] kind of like you have a new body at that point, but you need to play to what hands you have currently. So intermittent fasting, I think is a tool for some, but not for all.

And when I say all, I mean probably not women. And most of the time, by the way too, , and on that note, I think the two things that I see the most is, number one, using fasting as basically an excuse or a means for not eating or cutting calories.

And even just kind of like, oops. Accidentally like, yeah, I’m intermittent fasting. It’s so good for me and , you know, I only managed to get 1200 calories in today, but I’m so full. That type of thing. And then also labeling or painting over lifestyle deficits. And when I say lifestyle deficits, I’m not, I’m not making a value judgment.

I’m not saying that this is make someone a bad person or a good person. This is, this is me labeling or painting over lifestyle deficit. As fasting to cover sins. So I wake up in the morning, I’m in a hurry. I don’t, I don’t feel hungry, I don’t wanna [00:26:00] deal with it. My kids need to get fed, but I don’t wanna eat what they’re eating.

So, uh, I guess I’m just fasting this morning. I’m just not eating. I’m just not fueling myself. So those are the two ways I feel like I see people use this concept to cover greater deficits or greater problems that maybe need to be tackled. And the reason they do that makes sense. And the reason that you would do that makes sense.

It’s freaking easy. Inmin fasting’s one of the easiest things to do if you’re just doing it, especially the lazy way, where you’re just saying, because you’re not doing anything, you’re just literally not eating breakfast. And, and you know, I was really interested in intermittent fasting when it first was popularized, you know, when you were the paleo queen.

Like I, I think during that time I was super into the research. But I have to say as more time goes on, the more research that comes out, it doesn’t really confer huge weight loss benefits overeating the rest of the day. And I do think it does. Create more risk. So I, I would say that I am not against, especially if people don’t have a natural rhythm for eating breakfast, I don’t think that you have to include breakfast, you [00:27:00] know, if it’s something you don’t eat already.

 It’s certainly not eligible for anyone with an eating disorder or disordered eating. So that’s not, I would just take that, that person out of the equation altogether lovingly. Um, because I, I wouldn’t instill any sort of starvation in a, on a body that’s already, , really confused from a hunger cue perspective and a safety perspective.

 But I haven’t seen intermittent fasting be super effective for people from a physiological standpoint. For people who, whose bodies are running super well, , is there a possibility that intermittent fasting or other sorts of fasting could give some benefits? Yeah, I think there’s some research that, that, that shows that, especially from the auto fa perspective. But I, I would say that like you’re saying, the, , the potential risk of it is something that we, we really have to talk about and think about too.

I think we have to be really, really honest, and Ron, maybe I shouldn’t use the word we, maybe I should just talk about this. From my perspective, I think despite how much work [00:28:00] we have done as practitioners and as individuals, that would be the royal we, how much work people have done to conquer this idea that they have to look a certain way, be a certain size, um, present themselves to the world in a certain way.

It’s still there. It’s always still there. I think that’s a very natural thing. I think having an awareness of, for lack of a better word, aesthetics or presentation, is just a fully human, instinctual, deep seated thing that’s not gonna go away. But if we can just put that aside, just put that right here, it can still exist. It can still be a thing. But if we can put that over here and just say, I am going to embark upon this journey in fasting or in using compressed eating windows to actually feel better.

 How something like intermittent fasting will be applied to your life is going to look very different. It’s probably going to look less desperate. It’s probably going to look less extreme. So if we’re over here really looking at [00:29:00] improved function and being very clear about what the literature says and doesn’t say, for example, I think there are deficits in the long term applications of the scientific literature.

So we’ve talked about this multiple times. Something might work, whatever work means to you for two weeks, three weeks, six months, but is it gonna work for 10 years? Probably not. There are gonna be downsides to that, and that has everything to do with, again, adaptations. The body adapts to everything that you’re doing to become more efficient in that context.

So what I wanted to say, and what I’m finally gonna bring it around to is that there are real, I think, benefits probably to just this broad idea of honoring your circadian rhythm. We know this when it comes to sleep, but people don’t think about it when it comes to eating. So let’s talk about that a little bit.

Yeah. I mean our, I, I, I feel that everything revolves around our circadian rhythm. Yes. One episode that’s coming up on the podcast is with an amazing Ayurvedic doctor who is so cool. I have to brag about her for a second, because she has more than one md. She’s like an [00:30:00] md, PhD, mph h and she all in, of course, conventional medicine.

And she only practices Ayurveda. And I just think that is the coolest thing. And she’s, she’s a Harvard educated doctor, like she was valedictorian at Harvard. She is, she’s a real badass Dr. Oii. Um, her episode’s coming up and we talk about clock genes and, and basically what she sees in Ayurveda as.

Substantial, a lot of the science that she works with in Aveda as being substantiated by the fact that our circadian rhythm and these genes dictate how our bodies operate throughout the day. I mean, our circadian rhythm and body rhythm is probably one of the most important components of our health that dictates all the, that’s where all of the cellular cleanup happens is during sleep and, and also the way that our body knows which hormones to send out, at which time, how to operate.

We, we learn from our sleep pattern, so it’s, it’s completely essential that we line up how we’re eating also with our hormones, and I think sleep patterns too. Okay, so what did she say that looks like? And by the way, I’m so mad at you because you’ve really brought Ayurveda to like the, [00:31:00] the forefront of my awareness.

So now it was Googling yesterday, I was like, smoothies and iur vida. And I was like, dang it. all, did you take the, the dosha quiz at any point? No, I need to do that, but you’ve told me I need to do that. And I think what, what was it? Pitta pit Kafa. But I actually think you might be triosk. I have to be honest with you.

Oh God. I’ve thought about this more after which No, that’s the be that’s, that means you’re balanced. Oh, I actually think you might. No, no, it would be, it would be amazing. Which is why I also think, like you say, you kind of dip your toe in different things, but you never need, it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a wonderful thing to be triosk and I think you actually are.

Okay. Um, I think that eating according to the hours of the day where your digestive fire is strongest was something that we definitely talked about. And something that I definitely talk about your Agni ag and I, your digestive fire, and. Also eating around the rhythm of just the sun coming up and the sun coming down.

A, a lot of that I would say in practical application also really fa, really fascinating with [00:32:00] rhythm and fasting and blood sugar that I’ve noticed is clients who are in the pre-diabetic range of mine. I ha do a lot of continuous glucose monitoring with my clients who are in the pre-diabetic or diabetic range and either managed by medication or supplements in either if they actually do intermittent fasting or they go to low carb.

I see this huge cortisol spike in the morning and if they, if they miss that breakfast, their blood sugar is completely dysregulated the rest of the day. I feel like our sleep and our morning habits, well I don’t feel our sleep and our morning habit. Dictate our blood sugar patterns and hormonal patterns for the rest of the day because that’s, you know, cortisol is not only our main stress hormone, it’s also our rising hormone.

So that’s how our body signals to us to know when it’s time to even wake up and what literally wakes us up. So it’s really fascinating because this whole fasting idea, you would think people are like, eat low carb and fast, that’s gonna help with the blood sugar so much. And I never saw so much [00:33:00] dysregulation as when my clients have experimented with really low carb because then your body , starts creating glucose from non-G glucose particles. gluconeogenesis 

And that’s where you end up getting into this issue of high blood sugar that’s coming from not even the carbs that you’re eating. So I, I would say that that or medic response or stress response results in higher cortisol, gluconeogenesis and, and higher glucose in the bloodstream, which is wildly not the intended.

I remember 10 years ago when the paleo thing was first hitting this, the big kind of mainstream wave, and one of the things that one of the core tenets of paleo was like, it’s a low carp. Like you’re, we’re not eating carbs. Like we were not even into sweet potatoes yet. We were not even into squash. It was like, wow, the lowest we’re talking, we’re talking 2010 Paleo

We’re talking 2010 Paleo circa 2010, and one of the things that the Paleo elite would say is gluconeogenesis. It as a good thing, right? Your, your body doesn’t need, if it needs carbs, it’ll make ’em via gluconeogenesis. And, and [00:34:00] either it was a good thing or it was yet another thing that we had to be terrified of because oh my god, carbs like, oh my God, your body’s actually making carbs.

We have to, there’s something wrong here. It’s very, your body can’t make car. That’s really, really funny. To, to put a value judgment on gluco neogenesis is about the funniest thing I’ve ever heard in the world. ? No, no. Gluconeogenesis. . It’s, it’s, I think what we re you know, it’s so funny cuz we talked in the last episode about all the carnivore people who now have like honey and fruits and all these things that are added in.

I, I just don’t think we can beat this biological chemical notion that carbs are a preferred fuel source. I just don’t think there’s a way around it. And I think we really want that to not be the case because of our desperate fear of carbohydrates. But it’s, it’s just . Even if we say glucogenesis is bad, which is this like specific chemical reactions, hilarious.

Um, we can’t, we just can’t beat down. We people cannot accept the fact that carbohydrates are what I would consider absolutely essential. Even if you’re doing a ketogenic diet, you still [00:35:00] need to do car brief feeding cuz your brain needs glucose. So they are, they are essential and you have to get them from the diet at some point.

Okay, so basically I think what we’ve articulated is that fasting comes in many different forms. I think probably the standard like you were alluding to, the more the fasting that has roots in maybe religion or ancient belief systems would probably be 24 hours or longer versus what we call intermittent fasting, like the bro biohacking culture.

Yeah. That has sort of pervaded everything would be probably shorter term, whether people are just skipping breakfast or just eating two meals a day, something like that. , there’s the compressed eating window where you’re eating only across, , eight hours in any given day or time restricted eating, which is basically the same thing.

I would say another way to say the same thing, it, it could be different styles. So sometimes people do like 20. Like hours of fasting, four hours of feeding. There’s different studies with different, it just, it’s just the amount of hours. Yeah. Okay. And then I think what ends up being my personal favorite, which would [00:36:00] be, I don’t know what we wanna call it, circadian eating, eating and rhythm with your body and your hormonal pat in your hormonal patterns.

I’m not sure what I wanna call it. I’m sure there’s a name for it. Is there a name for. Are you just, I don’t, I’ve never heard this specific phrasing, but I am aware, like, are you just saying normal eating? Like eating? Yes. Eating, yes. You’re just saying doing well. Okay. Got it. And so, and I think the way that this is distinct from how we generally think about eating in food is that when we look at this larger context of what our bodies’ natural rhythms are, and we can’t escape that, it’s a circadian rhythm.

There’s light. I mean, we can’t escape that a little bit. And we do, you know, we watch TV until 11 o’clock at night, things like that. We don’t really set our days’ rhythm by the rising and the, the falling of the sun. But this idea that we are of the earth, of the earth of the world, and yes, we function best in harmony with it to the degree that we can.

Whether that’s the types of foods that are found in nature, the actual real light versus [00:37:00] artificial, light, movement patterns, all of those different things. . If we’re actually sort of zooming out and looking at it from that perspective, then we can apply those principles to perhaps what might be the most balancing way to eat, which would be Right.

You wake up, you have a big satiating meal. To mitigate or not to mitigate, because that cortisol spike in the morning isn’t a bad thing. Like you said. It’s what we’ve said, and in most cases un until it becomes a bad thing. Exactly. Until it becomes a bad thing in excess, we’ll call it. Yes. In excess. Okay.

So, and then you eat during the waking hours and then envision, you know, the sun goes down. And any other time in history, we wouldn’t be able to stay up, snacking, eating, watching tv, things like that. We would be asleep. Totally. So when you look at it that way, I mean, call it circadian eating or, I like it eating in rhythm.

We’ll call it rhythm, we’ll call it earth eating. I, I should actually brand it with my name. I should, it should be like the Liz Wolf Protocol. Something like [00:38:00] that. , someone can make some money. I can go on some podcast and bring that up with me. I think we’re just calling it the Wolf protocol. Cause it’s like, you’re, you’re, that’s too paleo.

Forget it. You’re, you’re gonna get labeled as too paleo again. Oh, you’re so right. And that’s, that’s kind of bro too, right? You know what I was gonna say? Actually, Def. I mean, by the way, as we both said, I mean obviously you’re, this, this podcast was originally like a, a very paleo leaning wor. This was the, the world.

We’re not, I’m not anti paleo at all. I I, but we’ve learned and it’s evolved and everything like that. What I would say is from the idea of the kind of evolutionary biological perspective, people would say, Hey, back in the day, we probably couldn’t even eat three meals a day. We probably didn’t have access to it.

So I would say that right now we can focus on including the things that offer potential biological advantages. Given the fact that we live in modern, many of us live, like I, I’m sure there’s lovely people live in the wilderness and God bless them, I wish I was them. But the people who live in modern society, we kind of have to [00:39:00] take as many advantages as possible.

So the, the level of stress hormones that we’re dealing with, the level of pressure that’s on our body does not match our ancestors at all. I mean, short of, yes, of course, if like an animal approached them, it would be very, very stressful. Panic attack inducing, I’m sure. But our panic attacks for many of us are like daily.

You know, we have an extreme output of stress hormones, and that has been. Consistently increasing over time. So there’s this idea, again, when I think of cortisol. So things that bring cortisol down in the morning is consumption of protein and carbs. So I, I usually say like 30 grams of protein within 30 minutes of waking up 30 grams of protein.

Honestly, 30 grams of carbs in 30 minutes of waking up. This is not nutrition or medical advice. Everything has to be individualized for you. But this is a, a general, Idea of something, you know, that people can do because when we eat carbohydrates, our cortisol comes down. So if you have an excess production of cor of cortisol, eating carbohydrates in the morning will bring you down.

If you don’t eat anything in the morning, you’re gonna overproduce cortisol, because when we have low blood sugar, our body produces cortisol [00:40:00] to activate that scary, terrible glucogenesis. Just kidding. Glucogenesis is neutral. I’m joking about that. Um, , so I think this other thing that’s important to acknowledge in all of this is that women’s bodies specifically are, are more likely to have a higher out, a disproportionately high output of cortisol.

My vision is because of this, these very tight preservation mechanisms for women and women’s bodies are also even more tied to the earth in ways of rhythm and cycles and, and, and all of that too. And it’s, it’s even more important for women’s bodies, I think, to not add. Too much stress on, even though I think resilience is important and or medic hormetic stress on, because I think that the stress load we’re dealing with in modern society is probably more than enough.

I think all of our goals should be to not coddle ourselves, but compassionately reduce stress where possible. And then when our bodies’ at a state of balance, that’s when we can start to introduce kind of the more positive [00:41:00] stressors. But remembering always and bringing it back to the idea that we have a finite amount of stress that we can tolerate.

And I don’t think people understand how grossly and grotesquely over that limit Most of us are on a daily basis, gosh, grotesque. Yeah. It is grotesque. I mean, for ourselves it’s not grotes the people it, it’s grotes sad that people have it and it stinks that people have to carry so much, so much on them and with.

So I think on that note, I would like to bring it to something that might be sort of a touchy topic, but I think it’s your wheelhouse. Yes, please. So oftentimes we are talking about alleviating some of these grotesque stressors and that can look like not coping mechanisms, but coping philosophies, which I would say like, uh, all foods fit is sort of a coping philosophy with this idea that we are so stressed, why add more?

Mm-hmm. , allow yourself to have what it is that you want. Let’s call coddling. Coddling. Okay. Coddling, [00:42:00] which is a line from sex and the city. When Stanford was talking about how he has multiple therapists standing, Stan, he was talking about how he had one therapist when he needs tough love and one for when he needs to be coddled.

And I was like, well, that’s brilliant. That’s absolutely brilliant. We all have friends like that, right? We have our coddling friend and our tough love friend. Totally. But these, these eating philosophies, whether it’s intuitive eating, Which I love. A lot of the, the parts of intuitive eating and then there’s the all food foods fit, which you and I have talked about a ton, but this idea that the, there are consequences extrapolated over time and also across like the means of utilization, how you actually incorporate these coping coddling philosophies into your routine.

You can actually end up making things worse. So one of the things that comes to mind is, it’s very specific, but one of the things I’ve seen all foods fit crew talk about is like, eat at night, have that giant bowl of ice cream at 10:00 PM and [00:43:00] while I am fully in favor of the occasional 10:00 PM like ice cream sundae, and I, I do it, I’ve done it.

If I want to eat in the evening, I will of course. But I also know intuitively and intellectually that there may be consequences to, that. There may be consequences to my sleep, , to my appetite regulation. And can we talk about when a good thing turns bad?

Yeah. I, I freaking love this conversation. I think. You know, there is a, there is, when we talk, God, I don’t know why it always comes out to freaking loneliness and sadness on your podcast, but it’s, it’s like the core of our being. I have this joke that in, I don’t know if I’ve said this on a different episode, sorry if I, it’s the second time hearing it.

But like, everything in life comes down to molder trauma. It’s the root cause of everything basically. No, you have not said that. But that is so like you walk back everything to the final, like readiest of root causes in functional medicine. It’s always molder trauma at the end. Oh my God. It’s so, but you know, the coddling thing is new in ways of the health space and in ways of dietician [00:44:00] specifically kind of promoting these ideas.

And, and I think what underlies it is a, a true, and this is like, I’ve never said this sentence before, but I need to get it right because it’s so important. But there is a true belief that we do not have the capacity to feel well and a true belief that all we can do is try to get through. Life. And, and that’s what’s underlying this coddling perspective is it’s like, yeah, your day was probably legitimately terrible.

The least you can do is give yourself some ice cream. If you were coming at it from the perspective of, I’m not trying to just survive, I’m trying to actually be healthy and live, you would, anyone would not, one would approach it from a more compassionate perspective, which is, Hey, is this gonna make you feel awesome?

You know, in the short term and the long term? And what do you need to feel good in the short term? And if that’s something that’s gonna hurt you on the back end, I think it’s something that needs to be evaluated. So when I know I have a, i, I, we all have different, and we’ve talked about this [00:45:00] parts theory in our brain, but we have these different kind of voices that talk to us.

And I know my coddling voice is immediately inauthentic for me because it’ll be like, oh, you had a terrible day, and that’s not how I speak. So I’ll, I’ll be like, Ugh, that’s not, that’s not the one. Sometimes my authentic voice will say, like you said, like just eat the ice cream. Let’s get over this and it’s gonna make you feel better temporarily.

And then we’ll deal with whatever it is tomorrow. And we understand the consequences basically. But if you labor under the belief that it’s impossible to heal, and you labor under the belief that if you’re chronically ill, or if you’re at a weight that you’re uncomfortable with, that there’s literally nothing you can do.

That hopelessness turns into what looks like compassion, but actually isn’t compassion. It’s just coddling and just trying to get you through that kind of next moment. So I, I do believe the issue with the All Foods fit crew, and I don’t mean body positive dieticians are true intuitive eating dieticians.

I mean, the specific group of practitioners who are like the All foods fit crew, eating these crappy foods and being like, this is healthy. That’s [00:46:00] different than body positivity and intuitive eating. But that crew specifically, they truly don’t believe anyone can heal. I know they don’t believe it. And it’s because, honestly, Liz, and this is a hardcore thing to say too, but.

I, I believe functional nutrition is completely necessary to deal with the level of chronic illness that we’re seeing now. I don’t think conventional dietetics has the tools necessary as the tools necessary to maintain symptoms and not maybe escalate them. But to reverse, you know, disease pathology is, is a totally different thing.

Um, and that’s, I think the world needs functional dieticians or nutritionists for that very much, or fn, TPS for that very much. Um, and I think that it’s a completely different set of training than what this group of dieticians or practitioners, it’s not just dieticians, practitioners has so, I don’t actually think they believe it’s possible.

I think they literally think if someone has i b s, that you just have to keep banding it. I don’t, I just don’t think they’ve ever seen or know that it’s true. I think they literally think when functional [00:47:00] dieticians say we reversed gut issues in someone, they literally think they’re lying and selling like snake oil, but they actually don’t know that It’s a very methodical, specific process, um, to do that.

That is, you know, you can always find some relief for people and some root cause and, and pursue it. So, sorry. This is a very long-winded way of saying the coddling comes from the underlying idea that is impossible for us to heal, that we are inherently broken and that we accumulate more stress and sadness and illness as time goes on, which is, could not be farther from the truth in my head.

I think it’s, I think it’s an uphill battle in our very toxic, uh, society, in ways of literal environmental, toxicants, toxic food, and, um, toxic ideologies. But it is certainly not impossible at all. By the way, we’re still talking about fasting right now.

This is all, yeah, yeah. This all is still, it’s all part of, it’s still. So for those of you who are like about to turn the podcast off cuz we’re not actually telling you how to fast for whatever it is that you wanna fast for this, this is still relevant. [00:48:00] So this ethic, this idea of self-improvement I think is very offensive to some people because I think a lot of people not only have interpreted this idea of self-improvement, not as this like interesting journey that we can stay curious about, but as this past fail thing, right?

I think a lot of these people really believe that that entire idea just leads to more pain and suffering. So we have to just give it up. And I think the nuance there is that as human beings, we have this amazing opportunity to just continue to see what we’re capable of, to progress and to move forward. And there’s a reason that progress means what it means. It’s a beautiful, interesting, experiential thing and part of experiencing life and really being active and a participant in our experiences is figuring out what the next thing is.

 And I think the way you approach that is what determines whether or not it causes you more pain or brings you more joy. And that’s probably a really important [00:49:00] factor to consider before you embark on any kind of lifestyle transition, whether it’s incorporating fasting or circadian eating, or the wolf protocol, whatever it may be.

But really considering how you’re going to approach the process. Right, totally. And I, you know, as you’re saying this too, I have this vision it’s like a. , a table in my head where it’s like one side of its discomfort and one side of its comfort.

And we think about where on the spectrum, you know, what we’re pursuing. So when I think of like hardcore calories and calories out people, bodybuilders, they are on the full. No pain, no game full onto the discomfort kind of side of the puzzle. And when I think of this, all foods fit, it’s the pursuance of comfort.

I think that the most healthy people in the world know when it’s time to get un uncomfy and when it’s time to get comfy. And I think when it comes to fasting, that’s the question you have to ask is first of all, sometimes fasting can be comfortable for people cause they’re just skipping breakfast and maybe they don’t even wanna make [00:50:00] breakfast in the morning.

Like you said, maybe they’re not interested in what the kids are eating and they just don’t wanna eat it. Thinking about I, I’d say if you land somewhere in the, you know, in the middle overall, but you sometimes dip your toe in discomfort, but it doesn’t feel like torture or punishment. You sometimes dip your toe in comfort when you need that love, but you have to move in and out of that.

There’s huge consequences to either side of that. If we are constantly in that state of discomfort or forcing ourselves to do something or punishment. There’s the consequence of obviously mental disruption and physical disruption. Same thing with just saying everything’s fine and pursuing com comfort all the time.

So I think that what a lot of the body positivity movement was bred out of was the extreme pursuance of discomfort that was so wrong for so many people in the diet culture world. And I think that what we all need to do is, is again, know when it’s time to get cozy and know when it’s time to buck up. I think there’s a, there’s a a total balancing act that needs to happen, which is really the beauty of working with a practitioner because they’re gonna [00:51:00] sense that on you and say, here’s your time to fight and here’s your time to chill and, and just, you know, Recover and rehab and, and that’s where I think the compassion comes in when you can swing back and forth between those two things.

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that I, I like to remember is not just things can change cuz I think oftentimes when we embark on these lifestyle changes or trying these new means of getting healthier or losing weight or whatever it is, we think things can change. They could, they could change, I could do this, well, crossing out the word can and just knowing that things do change.

Things do change. They might not always change the way we want them to or the way we expect them to, but change is an absolute guarantee. And. To get curious about that and to really observe what different things are actually doing, what changes they’re inspiring, or maybe what negative changes they’re causing is a really, really important way to get tuned in, in the way that a practitioner would.

And oftentimes we need that outside influence. That person who is really [00:52:00] considering our situations and saying, I actually think you might wanna consider this, or, based on what I’ve seen, this might be a good path for you to go down, but also to be able to help us edit how long we might plan to do something.

I think as, as someone. As just a lay person, you find something that you think works and you do it forever. But really what we need to realize is that things change from day to day, from hour to hour, week to week, month to month, and and on and on and on. So being able to, To edit and to, to make changes based on what you’re observing in yourself and not just saying, this fasting thing is supposed to work, whatever work means to you.

I say that all the time, right? So I don’t really, really know where I’m going with that, but do you have any, do you have any comment, commentary on that? What’s I, I, I do know where you’re going with it. And what I would say is that in this model of pursuing things that are either uncomfortable or comfortable to make ourselves feel good in the long or short term, [00:53:00] we have to consider the season that we’re in and consider what the change and, and the season means to us.

I can tell you that for myself, like when I was detoxing from mold, uh, it’s a long. Journey. But for me, at some point in time I was like, oh, fasting and, and go and hitting the sauna are gonna be like, really important for me right now. And then there’s times in life where I just, it’s so not in my realm. So it’s not the, the tool itself, like fasting itself isn’t inherently bad or good, like we always say, but it’s what season of change are you in and what are you really looking to work on or improve?

Or are you just looking to lick your wounds for a while? You can also just wanna recover and rehab for a while too. That’s totally okay. But I think I, I’m inspired by the idea of, of change as you’re saying it, to, to think about it in this way of the seasons of our life. And there’s a time for the tools and there’s a time for change.

And sometimes being in stasis can feel really comfortable. And especially when you’re coming out of a trauma or [00:54:00] something, it’s not the time again to push forward and promote change. It might be time to just get back to zero or whatever that looks like for someone. Sure. So one of the things that I think might be worth, and like we’ve said multiple times, this is not medical advice, this is not personal advice.

We have a disclaimer at the beginning of this podcast. So certainly I think our bases are covered. But I would like to share something that for me, has been an interesting concept that I have not applied in detail yet, but that I plan to in the near future. And that is resetting my appetite signaling to ensure that the rhythm I have fallen into on a daily basis is actually an authentic reflection of what my body needs and not just a rut that I’ve fallen into.

How would you do that? So this is a course that I am currently in 

and while it sort of leans toward the biohacking, to me it’s actually very interesting and some of these tools are useful. I’m actually probably mischaracterizing this because I have my [00:55:00] notes and I can’t remember exactly what the timeline is from day to morning, but there’s something about extremely um, vigorous physical activity and then a massive breakfast, I think the following day and something about that, and maybe there’s also a bolus of vitamin D in there as well, is supposed to actually sort of physiologically reset the appetite and reset that, that rhythm.

So I’m very curious about it. I’m curious whether it would work well for me, whether it would really reset my appetite reset my circadian rhythm is it a leptin game? What’s a game? I have no idea. I have no idea. I’ll have to go back. 

Yeah, I’m interested to learn. Um, It’s really hard to know our hunger cues and what our pattern of eating should be when we are, like you said, either in a really rhythmic pattern that’s not working for us, but we are kind of just in that pattern when we’re not making decisions for ourselves because our schedules are too rigorous and certainly for eating hyper palatable foods that are hijacking our hunger cues.

And certainly if we have extreme amounts of stress, certainly if we have gut disruption. So I think the and, and certainly if we’re not sematically eating right, we’re not [00:56:00] eating, noticing how we’re experiencing food, noticing what our body needs before and after and during a meal. I think that all of those things can be extremely disruptive to understanding when we’re actually hungry, what our hunger cues are.

Another thing I always see is when it comes to gut issues is if people. Reflux or something like that. It, they have no appetite in the morning generally, and feel like almost a little, ugh. Like that’s the, that’s how I describe it. They’re not like gonna throw up, but it’s like the ugh kind of feeling. And it’s a, it’s kind of a secret reflux symptom that a lot of people don’t realize is this disinterest in food.

So all of these signals from our body, Can be telling our brain that we’re hungry or not. So I think that working on listening to any of your symptoms is probably one of the first and most important steps to understanding your hunger cues because, uh, again, it’s, if you notice also, I’m never hungry in the morning ask, you know, get really curious in a very Liz way, ask questions about how long has this been happening?

Is this my normal thing? Have I always felt this way? Is this brand new? Are [00:57:00] there other symptoms that are accompanying this? I think get really curious about what your patterns are, how long they’ve been there. Are they serving you? Are you feeling good in that way? And I would say that creating a more somatic eating environment, AK of the body, connecting your body and symptoms to your brain as much as you possibly can.

Treating the nervous system really gently before a meal. I think that all of those help us to understand what our body actually wants, because all of those messages can get really, um, confusing, which is why intuitive eating as a model for people who are chronically ill doesn’t generally work that well.

Um, because those messages can get really confusing because of those biological reactions. Okay. I like your way better, but, but you know what? That’s I, I’m, I’m down to play anything because I, that’s, that’s the thing. If something actually was helpful for someone, I’m open to hearing about it. That’s why we’re not, I’m not bashing fasting.

I’m not fa bashing this model. I think it’s interesting. I, I, I mean there’s also something in that, [00:58:00] that’s why I’m like, is it an insulin thing? Is it a leptin thing? What game is, I’m always trying to find out what’s the game. I’ll find out, you’ll tell me what the game is. There’s definitely a hormonal component of this, obviously.

Um, but it’s, if, if it helps someone, why not try it as if it safe and helps someone? I think it’s cool, and I don’t think it’s too far outside of what might happen in a normal life where you just have, or a normal, you know, day of being human where you might have a really, really taxing active day, followed by a big, like refeed replenishment, all of that, and then potentially that being useful, useful tool.

Yeah. But for me, I it, after many years of figuring all of this stuff out for myself, It’s safe for me to experiment a little bit. It’s safe for me to try things here and there because I have learned how to approach them in a healthy, curious non-pro, prolonged, non desperate way. Just you’re just tacking data.

That’s what I always say is yes. If you could get to a point where you can just [00:59:00] utilize information about yourself and about your habits as data, you know, good examples like this aura ring. For me, I’m obsessed with it. I was so upset that it’s gold cause I couldn’t wear it on my wedding day. I was like, this is like miserable.

It’s, it’s gonna ruin every picture. My family was like, take it off at the bridal shower is very funny. I think I still wore it at the bridal shower. Um, but not the wedding. But for me, it, it gives me, Information that I find entertaining gives me information that can kind of sometimes inform my decisions about what I’m gonna do, but for other people, having that influx of data can feel extremely triggering and overwhelming.

Mm-hmm. . So I think that it, it, it really depends on, again, what the tool is and how you’re using the tool and interpreting the tool. If you’re using a term fasting to explore your hunger cues or if you’re using intermittent fasting to pursue an immediate aesthetic through totally different things. If you’re using intermittent fasting to punish yourself, totally different than if you’re using it cause it’s easy and you don’t feel like you need breakfast.

Mm-hmm. , I think the tool itself is never as important as the intention behind the tool and what you’re taking from the knowledge you learn from the tool. Okay. All right. I know [01:00:00] you gotta get outta here. So let’s try and let’s do our summaries on fasting. If we had to give somebody a summary on what we would want people to take home from this episode, I think mine would be, if you are considering.

Using a tool like fasting, intermittent fasting, circadian eating to a degree. But I think that’s probably a pretty safe bet in application. But if you are considering doing a tool like fasting or intermittent fasting as it is generally presented to us in social media and by, nutrition influencers, if that is safe for you, my thought is to really use it as a tool, as you just said, to gather data, how does my body respond to this?

And on top of that, ensuring that you are actually getting the nourishment that your body needs to function over the long term. So not using it as a tool to intentionally or unintentionally cut calories. 

I would say my main takeaways with fasting are notice your intention for it. [01:01:00] Notice how it feels. Collect data like you’re saying as you go along, and frankly, notice your stress patterns. I would all, we forgot to talk about this, which is the kind of hugest thing with fasting ever, is that a lot of my clients who are anxious love them.

Intermittent fasting because of that drop in blood sugar. And because of that rise in cortisol can result for many people in waking up at 2:00 AM and having a lot of anxiety. So if you notice that your blood sugar’s dysregulated, you’re having anxiety, that’s a sign that your body is overly stressed and it’s not your time or season to pursue additional stress.

If you’re, again, like a relatively. Male, in most cases, you probably can get away with flexing your metabolism a little bit. It’s just, I I, I just haven’t seen in my eight and a half years in practice, um, with working with a thousand clients, I haven’t seen it work for a woman yet, uh, in the long term, to be honest with you, very short term.

But those changes in that cascade [01:02:00] in hormones come so quick. It’s, it’s unbelievable how amazingly protective and resilient our bodies are. It’s, it’s how much your body does not want you to starve is an amazing thing. Um, I would say again, there’s nothing inherently wrong with intermittent fasting. I think that there is some interesting and positive data that has come out about intermittent fasting, and we have like a lot of studies now to comb through.

I, I think that the studies where it’s saying that if you ate the same amount of calories, but you ate it throughout the day versus intermittent fasting, uh, would, would create weight loss benefits is are disproven. Um, the, there, it’s, it’s about the same. At, at, at that rate. It is more of a calories and calories out game.

Again, know your car. Know your body car, know what your body’s able for, know what your set point of discomfort and comfort is and waiver in and out. Don’t go too far in either direction and if fasting is a tool for either, don’t let it take you too far either way. Well, we are not the intermittent fasting women.

Our job is to look at both [01:03:00] sides. There are certainly Yeah. Benefits to it. And there are benefits to discontinuing the practice if it’s not working for you. Yeah. Our job is to, is to look at both sides, see both sides of the table. Yeah. And we’re gonna continue to do that with the Wolf protocol coming out and 20

Oh, love it. Okay. Thank you for coming on with me yet again. My joy. Can’t wait to talk to you again. I can’t wait. I can’t wait. Morris.

Thanks for listening to the new Balanced Bites Podcast! Before you shut down your podcast app, PLEASE take a moment to subscribe and leave a review! It’s a small thing you can do that I appreciate more than you can imagine! And speaking of what we can do for each other, if YOU have a question you’d like to have tackled on this podcast or an interview you’d like to hear, submit the details at Let’s keep unpacking, unraveling, contextualizing and nuance-ing the important questions together so we can be empowered, informed, active participants in our own health and happiness.

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