Balanced Bites Podcast #148: Probiotics, shingles, what our meat eats, and clearing scars

Remember – If you’re enjoying these podcasts, please leave us a review in iTunes. Thanks!

Topics:

1.  Diane’s updates [8:32]
2.  Liz’s updates [17:06]
3.  How do I sneak in more probiotics?  [21:30]
4.  Young, healthy, and diagnosed with shingles [28:03]
5.  The animals I eat are eating foods I’m trying to avoid  [41:39]
6.  What can I do about old acne scars?  [49:39]
7.  Diane’s kitchen tip [50:55]

 
Links:

Click here to listen online
The episodes are currently available in iTunes, Stitcher & Blog Talk Radio. 

 
 

Show sponsors:

Liz Wolfe: Hey everyone! Welcome to episode 148 of the Balanced Bites podcast. It’s me, Liz! And I’m here with Diane, as usual. Hey girl, hey!
Diane Sanfilippo: Hey!
Liz Wolfe: And, we are sponsored by several phenomenal paleo real food friendly companies. Let’s talk about them. First, Pete’s Paleo, bringing fine dining to your cave. If you’d like to make eeking – {laughs} eeking? Hey, if you’d like to make eeking paleo a little easier.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: {laughs} Eating paleo a little easier, check out Pete’s meal plans. The meals are great for nights when you’re on the run, out of time, or you’re a terrible cook like me.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: And you need real food because you’re sick of spaghetti squash and tomato sauce. Pete’s Paleo is now offering 21-Day Sugar Detox friendly meals, which is awesome, make your life that much easier. Check out http://petespaleo.com/ for all the details. And also be sure to check out chef Pete’s new cookbook, Paleo By Season, which is beautiful, which has just been released. Photos by Sarah Servold.
Diane Sanfilippo: Forward by me.
Liz Wolfe: Forward by Diane Sanfilippo of the Balanced Bites podcast.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.
Liz Wolfe: Yeah. Chameleon Cold-Brew. The new ready to drink single serving bottles are hitting store shelves all over the place. They have a black coffee, a vanilla coffee, a mocha coffee, they are just really, really lightly sweetened with organic cane sugar. They’ll have three new flavors of it coming out in August, so stay tuned for details on that. I can’t believe we’re getting close to August. That’s crazy.
Diane Sanfilippo: I know! And just a heads up, the black coffee of the ready to drink doesn’t have any sweetener, so if you’re on the 21DSD, you can definitely drink those, as I had one this morning. Yes.
Liz Wolfe: Sweet! And finally, our newest sponsor, which we’re so excited about, , Splits59. They are a high performance, high fashion active wear company based out of LA. I love their tops. They’re just really kind of funky and fun, and cute, and you know, one of those things where you’re going out to the store and you don’t want to wear what you normally wear, which is…
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: Probably sweat pants that have been cut off into shots.
Diane Sanfilippo: A housecoat?
Liz Wolfe: And no bra. {laughs}
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: Throw on some Splits59, and you’ll look super cute. They’ve generously offered our listeners 15% off any regularly priced merchandise with the promo code BALANCEDBITES. Make sure you check out http://www.splits59.com/, and yeah. That’s what we’ve got!
Diane Sanfilippo: I think their big sale is still going on.
Liz Wolfe: Ok.
Diane Sanfilippo: So check..
Liz Wolfe: As of?
Diane Sanfilippo: I think as of this week, yeah. And I’ve posted a few pictures over on Instagram if you want to see some of their stuff. Obviously, you can go to their website, but if you’re curious about how it fits or whatever, I’ve posted a bunch of pictures and answered a bunch of questions about that stuff.
Liz Wolfe: I haven’t, because I don’t really know how to take a selfie.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} I take terrible selfies, or I just put Scott through the horrible task of taking a picture of me and then, you know, having to take 6 of them, because unlike the reality selfie, the {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: {laughs}
Diane Sanfilippo: The posed picture, you know, I have to make sure it’s a decent angle or something.
Liz Wolfe: Diane and I are starting a reality selfie movement where, here are the rules.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: I posted one yesterday and I posted what the rules were. I’ve got to pull that up. The rules are, it has to be a face that you make at least once a day. A real face, because don’t tell me anybody is out there actually making duck, Kim Kardashian duck faces every day. That’s just not the case. I mean right?!
Diane Sanfilippo: I mean…
Liz Wolfe: Walking around making duck faces.
Diane Sanfilippo: I did mine, and it was kind of after the fact, but it was a picture that I had just taken one, and it was a real face that I probably make, and I don’t know. I feel like people are really scrunching their faces up into weird positions, and I’m like, I would never do that on a regular day!
Liz Wolfe: Well, you’re one of those rare people that is just naturally talented at taking selfies.
Diane Sanfilippo: No, no, no. I’m talking about, not the duck face, I’m talking about, Jenni did one, Urban Poser, and she had her face like all the way crammed back into her neck, and I’m like, yes. That is hysterical.
Liz Wolfe: Oh, I missed that one!
Diane Sanfilippo: Now, is she really making that face? I don’t know. I’ve seen Jenni, and she’s beautiful, so I’ve never seen her make that face.
Liz Wolfe: So, no editing. Has to be a face you make at least once a day, and you have to use the first picture you take.
Diane Sanfilippo: No filters or any of that.
Liz Wolfe: Yeah, no filters. Exactly.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} This is really hilarious. I’m actually looking at it again; it’s amazing. {laughing} So, I’m giving that one a pass.
Liz Wolfe: Think of the ones, like if you’re sitting there at your computer, just kind of take note of the faces you’re making in different moments.
Diane Sanfilippo: You know whose done this? The Paleo Mom has done this. I don’t know if she makes a crazy face, but she takes a “this is me editing my book” picture, and it does look pretty intense. The look on her face is sheer horror and exhaust and all of that good stuff.
Liz Wolfe: How do you manage to keep up with everybody else’s Instagram and do everything else?
Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t know.
Liz Wolfe: Because I really struggle to put pants on in the morning. {laughs}
Diane Sanfilippo: Well, I mean you have to take your phone into the bathroom.
Liz Wolfe: {laughing}
Diane Sanfilippo: That’s step one. {laughs} What else do you do while you’re in there? I’m just kidding.
Liz Wolfe: You’re not pooping fast enough.
Diane Sanfilippo: I’m not kidding. No, I just kind of hang out.
Liz Wolfe: {laughing}
Diane Sanfilippo: I’m just like, well, let me just check Instagram.
Liz Wolfe: Just a moment of peace, gosh!
Diane Sanfilippo: Honestly, the reason I love Instagram is that, if somebody does scroll through their feed, they will see something that I posted, unlike Facebook. I mean, I’m sorry that we’re always bashing on Facebook on this podcast but it’s true. You might scroll through your feed for an hour and never see something I posted just recently. So that’s the thing I like about Instagram. Plus, people ask me questions on there, and I can answer them, and it’s like, you know, basically I’m just not worried that if somebody wanted to see something, they wouldn’t. So, I don’t know, I just really like Instagram. I think it’s really kind of a fun way to combine sharing nutrition education and lifestyle stuff with just my real life. I don’t know, I think a lot of people who listen to the podcast, they definitely appreciate that glimpse. I know people love when you have pictures of goats and stuff with your husband. There’s just that element of like, we’re real people.
Liz Wolfe: {laughs} I’m a human being. I put my pants on sometimes in the morning just like you!
Diane Sanfilippo: I’m being serious though! I had a woman on Amazon who, I responded to her review, and I think she almost fell out of her chair with her response. She was like, wow! You’re a real person! I’m like, yeah, I’m a real person {laughs} you know. So, I don’t know. Just like the reality selfie. We’re not always made up and I’m not always wearing eyelashes and all the fancy things.
Liz Wolfe: Kim Kardashian is, though.
Diane Sanfilippo: I mean, I think she probably has them implanted.
Liz Wolfe: {laughing}
Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t know.
Liz Wolfe: I hope that’s a thing. Just for the future of America, I hope that’s a thing.
Diane Sanfilippo: Eyelash extensions are a thing. But, everyone I’ve seen whose gotten them has loved them, and then has later hated them because basically all of their natural eyelashes have become super weak and thin, and then have fallen out for the most part.
Liz Wolfe: That’s horrifying!
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. Pretty bad.
Liz Wolfe: I don’t advocate eyelash extensions in the Purely Primal Skincare Guide. {laughs}
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} I rub my eyes too much for that. I think they would just fall off. Anyway.
Liz Wolfe: Anyway. So, what’s going on in your world?
1. Diane’s updates [8:32]
Diane Sanfilippo: Other than the fact that I just scrolled through the Urban Poser’s Instagram feed, and I’m like drooling all over my keyboard.
Liz Wolfe: Oh, obssessed with her.
Diane Sanfilippo: Because the new cookbook that’s coming out soon. I’m sure we’re going to talk to her. Hopefully, I don’t know, maybe we can get on 3 of us actually on a call and record it. I know we’ve had issues with Skype being able to record that in the past, but I think that would be really fun.
Liz Wolfe: I’ll go to the land of real internet if we do that.
Diane Sanfilippo: Ok. Alright. Alright. I think that would be good. So hopefully we can chat with her. But, what’s up with me? Well, I’m pretty much eyeball deep in the release of the new 21-Day Sugar Detox program, so. This episode, if you’re catching it on the first day it airs, it is July 17, 2014, and as of today, the first two videos of my 4 free video series will have been released. So if you go over to 21DSD.com or 21DaySugarDetox.com, however you want to spell it you’ll get there. There’s a box right in the middle of the page with a picture of me dancing next to it. {laughs} It says send me the videos. Just put your name and email on there, there’s no purchase necessary, and I will give you access to those videos. The next few kind of release every few days, so you can kind of come back and check it, you don’t have to watch them all at once. I’m just super excited about it. The whole point of this is I really want to begin to educate people a little bit more on the issues that we have.
The first video is why do we crave sugar. So, while there may be lots of different reasons, I kind of cover some of the main reasons why we crave sugar. In the next video, I talk about 3 places, or three common foods, where sugar hides. Just foods you wouldn’t expect to find added sugar, and how manufacturers sort of hide sugar in these foods, so I teach you about that. And then the third video I talk about 3 different foods or groups of foods that help your body naturally detoxify. And that’s from anything, but also obviously from sugar. Just supporting your liver and doing all that it does, because it can use all the support it can get. And the last one is where I really talk about this idea of finding food freedom, and that’s one of the things that I think is really powerful about the 21-Day Sugar Detox, because it’s just a program that is not intended to be how you eat for forever, but I think a lot of people really struggle with knowing that sugar isn’t something they want to eat all the time, they don’t know what to do. The program really helps you get to a place where you can then figure out, how do you get sugar off your mind. How do you get to this place where, you just put your decisions on autopilot. You know what to eat, you know what’s going to make you feel good. You know if you do splurge or you have a treat, you know how it’s going to make you feel, and you can make that informed decision, but it’s also not this concious stressful decision all the time.
And I think, Liz, that’s what you and I talk about a lot on this show, is that it’s not about a diet or anybody else’s rules for you, but one of the things that’s just really effective about the program is, after this sort of construct of eat this, not that, you get this education about yourself, about what foods really work for you, and you figure out sort of how to tread thereafter. And you know, some people do come back and complete the program again for various different reasons. I don’t think that means the program didn’t work; I think you learn something, and I think one of the things that people learn on the program is that, sometimes they get off track for a lot of different reasons, and having a program to kind of come back to that they feel confident works for them, that they like doing, that they enjoy the whole process, then that’s a beneficial thing in my eyes. I don’t see it as this sort of crazy, oh, I need to detox! Because a lot of people do a juice cleanse, right, for 3 days or even a week.
Liz Wolfe: Ugh.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. I talk about that in one of the videos on detox, and it’s not really what supports your body in detoxifying. It’s kind of one of those myths. I don’t have a whole bunch against green juice, for example, as part of a healthy balanced way of eating, but it’s just another one of those myths that, in order to get your body detoxifying, you should just drink vegetable juice for a few days. It’s just not really what I want to support. I just love running this program, and I’m really enjoying having people buying the books and kind of going through it, but what I missed about having the program available online was kind of that instant gratification that people can get where, if you decide today that you want to get started really soon and you don’t want to have to wait too long to get started, though I do like for you to take a few days, maybe even up to 7 to get prepared, sometimes it’s just, you know, I’m not ready to run out to the store and grab a book, or not everybody wants to jump on Amazon and buy it, that kind of thing. There will be resources now available again immediately as part of the whole online membership where you get all of the eBooks and audio files, and more video files and all kinds of stuff that I’ll be adding to that, even beyond what people will get initially. I’m just excited. I know you have an online program too, and you have the Purely Primal Skincare Guide, and Good Food for Bad Cooks, and what’s cool about online programs is that we can update and expand them as we want to.
Liz Wolfe: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Diane Sanfilippo: And part of having printed books is, you know, probably every week, I’m like, ugh, I wish I could add this to the book!
Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.
Diane Sanfilippo: You just can’t do that. So, I love that I can offer this place for people to basically stay a little bit more connected with me, too, and you know when I have a new guide that I want to give you for the Sugar Detox, it will just get added. So if you want to log in and grab it, you can grab it. If you come back to the program in 6 months, and you’re like, oh I wonder what’s new, you can get whatever is new. I’m just really excited about it. So check out 21DaySugarDetox.com. Don’t forget that if you are on the program, or you’re looking to start it at whatever point in time, we start a new group the first Monday of every month. It’s not always the first of the month, but for example, the next one will start August 4th. I do like for people to try and get themselves ready a good week ahead of time.
I have a free email support series, so in the top left corner of the 21DaySugarDetox.com, this is a different sign up than just getting the videos, but you can sign up for daily detox support, and that’s completely free. You pick your start date, you have to pick a date in the future. It doesn’t work backwards. You pick a date in the future that you’re going to start, and every day you’ll get a message to your inbox with some inspiration, links to additional recipes, all kinds of really fun stuff. I know people really love getting those emails. So that’s everything I wanted to tell people.
Liz Wolfe: Cool.
Diane Sanfilippo: Cool. I am super pumped. My team and I have been nose to the grindstone, working really hard on this whole thing, basically since the books came out. Just kind of shifted gears and wanted to figure out how can we bring this back also online, and I’m super excited. And I’m super excited about the videos, because their just so cute that they make me laugh. Their animated, and their awesome. I’m just really excited about that {laughing}.
Liz Wolfe: {laughs} So, are you excited?
Diane Sanfilippo: I’m excited.
Liz Wolfe: That’s great. Videos are fun. I used to really, really resist doing videos, and now I kind of enjoy it.
Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t like; we talked about this. I don’t think, I don’t know if we talked about it on the podcast. But I’m really bad at having a mission, or something I have to say in a video that’s more than 15 seconds, so basically what you’re going to get with the videos is, I’m going to introduce it, and then you’ll hear me talking and you’ll watch the animation which, for me, I also like to explain things in pictures, so it’s kind of fun for me to be able to do that with the video, and then kind of close it out with looking at my smiling face again. But otherwise, it’s basically hand me a jar of something, and I can talk about it for 5 minutes. You’re a lot better at being prepared. {laughs} I’m not good at that.
Liz Wolfe: I do all the work in the front end, versus, I don’t know.
Diane Sanfilippo: I just show up.
Liz Wolfe: You just show up! {laughs}
Diane Sanfilippo: And start talking. That’s basically it. Like, we’re live? Ok. 3, 2, 1, go.
Liz Wolfe: Ugh. You’re just effortless. Like George Clooney.
Diane Sanfilippo: That’s not true! {laughs} It’s not true.
Liz Wolfe: By the way, George Clooney was on Roseanne, way back in the day.
Diane Sanfilippo: Totally!
Liz Wolfe: Booker.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah! He was like, the boss man, right, in the little office?
Liz Wolfe: He was Jackie’s boss, I think.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, totally.
2. Liz’s updates [17:06]
Liz Wolfe: Oh my gosh. Classic! Ok. Well, my updates are petite. Just still doing some development on the skin care line. I get, I guess I do want to say this. I get some flak sometimes via anonymous commenters on the interweb about why aren’t you recommending X, Y, and Z? This could be really effective! So, for example, I had a little exchange with somebody on the blog recently about a treatment for keratosis pilaris where he suggested I was doing people a disservice by not suggesting a certain type of product, and my response was, I’m aware of these products, but they just don’t fit my conceptualization of what a really good quality, non-irritating skin care product is. So, when you take a natural approach to healing, sometimes it takes a little bit longer, and you have to be a little bit more vigilant, and maybe even do a little bit more experimenting than just hammering your body with something that may work for one thing, but could cause irritation in another way.
People ask me a lot about vitamin C serums. And I’m really hoping to make a really good quality vitamin C serum in my skin care line, but there are a ton of considerations. Like, the proper acidity, the shelf life, the type of vitamin C that we’re using, things like that. And, everything that’s available right now, with regards to vitamin C serums, which are really great anti-aging type of product, everything that’s available right now has something in it that I just can’t say, hey this is great for everybody! This isn’t going to cause irritation. That type of thing. So, that’s my deal. I know I’m being kind of deliberately vague, but there are products out there that work really, really well, that seem natural, that I just can’t put my stamp of approval on.
So, the whole reason that I decided to start developing this skin care line is, I want to figure out a way to make these things work for people with sensitive skin. Or for people that are trying to heal from the inside out, and not use anything on their skin that could possibly be counterproductive. So, whether that’s a vitamin C serum, or a rosacea cream that contains niacinamide or something like that, I want it to be both effective and safe. So, that’s where I’m at right now. I know people are impatient for it, and maybe I shouldn’t have said anything so early. But, I’m excited about it, and I like getting feedback from people on what they want and what they’re looking for, but I also need people, you know, feel free to throw out suggestions to me, but understand that I am aware of, at least I think I’m aware, of the full spectrum of what’s available to people. It’s just, a lot of it we think is natural and we think it’s safe, and it’s just not.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. There’s a ton of “natural” or even organic skin care, especially in stores. A lot of what we find online, I’m sure in our little circles are some that we do like and some that are maybe just not “perfect”. But, yeah, I’m excited for you to have something, because I know and trust you and your take.
Liz Wolfe: {laughs}
Diane Sanfilippo: No, it’s true! It’s one of those things where, I ask Hayley all the time about makeup, for example.
Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.
Diane Sanfilippo: Because I know that she’s going to do her best to find something that’s natural, but also something that really works. Because I don’t wear makeup every day. So when I wear it, I really want it to be professional looking. I’m not somebody who is enough of a hippie to put beet powder on my eyes and call it eye shadow.
Liz Wolfe: {laughing}
Diane Sanfilippo: I just can’t do it. It’s fine, I am happy if somebody else can do it.
Liz Wolfe: Your face smells like beet powder! {laughs}
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Your face smells like peppermint! What does it say?
Liz Wolfe: Your face smells like peppermint.
Diane Sanfilippo: Anyway. I’m excited about it. I know it’s going to take a long time, and I know you and have been talking as you’re researching. You guys, Liz does nothing but intensely research everything she’s going to tell you is awesome, so I’m excited for it.
Liz Wolfe: {laughs} Spanks!
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.
Liz Wolfe: So that’s my only update. Anything else before.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Before we deliver the meat of the podcast?
Liz Wolfe: {laughs} 20 minutes later?
Diane Sanfilippo: It’s fine. It’s all good.
3. How do I sneak in more probiotics? [21:30]
Liz Wolfe: Alright. First question. How do I sneak in more probiotics? Nate says, “Hello ladies! Thank you for all you do for the paleo community. Liz, thank you for writing an amazing book that has truly changed my life.” Aww! “Diane, your book is next, and I’m sure it will have a great impact on me, as well.” That’s a first!
Diane Sanfilippo: No it won’t.
Liz Wolfe: By the way.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} I know!
Liz Wolfe: Somebody reading my book first!
Diane Sanfilippo: It is, but that’s awesome. I love it.
Liz Wolfe: I win. I win.
Diane Sanfilippo: Ok.
Liz Wolfe: Alright. “So, about me. I’m 24, living in SoCal, and have been strict paleo since January 1, 2014. I was 5’10”, 207 pounds. As of today, I’m still 5’10”…” {laughs} Shock!
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: “short guy who loves volleyball problems, but I’m currently 178 pounds and feeling great. My insomnia has completely gone away, and I’m sleeping a good 7-8 hours a night, and the inflammation in my knees is also gone. I feel amazing. My question is in regards to fermented foods. I’ve been making my own sauerkraut and loving it. I grew up in a Polish household, so I can eat that stuff by the handful. My wife, on the other hand, can’t and won’t. I’m glad that she’s embraced this lifestyle change with me, and she’s really enjoying the results and health benefits. I’m trying to find a good source of probiotics that would benefit my wife. She likes kombucha sometimes, but it makes both of us a little too gassy. I mean, honestly, it makes me feel like I drank the fizzy lifting drinks from” {laughing} “Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. I’m going to try making my own kombucha to see if I get a little less bubbly factor. Anyway, if I could hide sauerkraut in my wife’s food like I do with liver,” {laughs} I hope she knows about this! “I don’t think we would have a problem. Don’t tell her, but she still..” Oh. {snorts} “don’t tell her, but she still doesn’t know I put it in just about everything that calls for ground beef. I’m going to try fermenting carrots, but I still don’t think she’ll go for that.” That’s funny right there. “What other ideas do you have to get some healthy probiotics in my wife’s daily paleo rotation? I just thought of this, but maybe I could blend up some sauerkraut or some other fermented food into a smoothie. Would blending kill the probiotics like heating them would? Thanks again ladies.”
Diane Sanfilippo: Oh. Em. Gee.
Liz Wolfe: {laughing}
Diane Sanfilippo: Sauerkraut in a smoothie!! I’m pretty sure she would know.
Liz Wolfe: Maybe some juice? Like a little bit of sauerkraut juice? {laughs}
Diane Sanfilippo: Um. Actually, ok. Here’s what… he was saying he was hiding liver in everything, is that what he was saying?
Liz Wolfe: Yeah.
Diane Sanfilippo: Which is great, I would not try and get her to drink a liver smoothie, I think that would maybe not work. The liver shot? {laughs} So the one thing you can’t do with the whole probiotic sauerkraut is cook it into meat. That will kill the probiotic content. So, you won’t be able to do that. A couple of ideas I have for ways to hide the fermented goodies would be, depending on what it is, if it’s cabbage or sauerkraut or if it’s carrots, I would try mixing it into a slaw. So if you have just a regular cabbage slaw that you’re making up with a recipe, you could probably add a little bit of the fermented carrots in there. That would probably work pretty well.
Another idea, which, this is something I like to do. It’s not really hiding it as much, but maybe you’re just using it as a topping on, like lettuce boats. I really like, if you have the recipe from Practical Paleo, I think it might be on my website too. But it’s the jalapeño sauerkraut. So you have a little bit of a kick in there. I really like that, just a handful, on top of a lettuce boat. Again, that doesn’t really hide it, but you could mix it with some other stuff, so it kind of doesn’t look as fermented. But it’s going to have that sour taste. It’s a tricky thing because, {laughs} I almost think liver is easier to hide, especially when you season ground meat, put lots of flavoring in there. It’s a little bit easier to hide.
Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.
Diane Sanfilippo: There was one other thing I just kind of thought of; oh. If you want to try and making some fermented pickles. They’re not really going to taste different from other pickles, it’s just that most pickles you’ll get in the store are pickled, not fermented. So, they’re just going to be a combination of spices and herbs and garlic and vinegar and maybe some sugar in regular pickles versus a fermented pickle, which will have, obviously the probiotic content in there. I think those are some good ideas. With pickles, you can also kind of dice them up and put them in a tuna salad or something like that. Which, I mean, {laughs} I always like pickles in my tuna salad.
Liz Wolfe: Oh, I used to love that! I forgot about that.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. So just kind of dice them up and mix them in there. I don’t know, do you have any other ideas?
Liz Wolfe: I was thinking maybe some beet kvass. The fab ferments.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.
Liz Wolfe: http://fabulousferments.com/. They have some amazing; I mean, you can home make it. But I’ve order the beet kvass; the ginger kvass from http://fabulousferments.com/. And it’s phenomenal. You can just take a little shot of that; maybe she’d be willing to do that?
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, I like the beet kvass mixed with some lemon juice. I find it really, really sweet, so sometimes I’ll even water it down and then add some lemon juice, because I like sour things. Or you could even add the beet juice; you could add that beet juice, the kvass, to a smoothie, and that would probably taste ok. Especially if it’s a little more veg-heavy. I don’t know. It’s pretty sweet, right? The beet kvass.
Liz Wolfe: Well, the zukay, that brand, I know they have stevia in their kvass.
Diane Sanfilippo: Oh, that one’s really… Oh, do they?
Liz Wolfe: But there’s nothing… yeah. There’s nothing in the fab ferments. It’s just the fermented beets.
Diane Sanfilippo: Is it sweet, or it’s not really?
Liz Wolfe: Not at all.
Diane Sanfilippo: Mostly sour? Ok.
Liz Wolfe: It’s kind of neutral, it’s just kind of earthy.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} I put beets. It’s like I’ll make these big salads for lunch. Tangent, right now. Tangent.
Liz Wolfe: Standard.
Diane Sanfilippo: I’ll make big salads, and I’ll just throw all the vegetables in there, and I’ll tell Scott, I don’t care if you like this or not {laughs} but you’re going to eat it, because I have to use these. He eats a lot of vegetables, there’s some he just doesn’t like. And I got to a point where I’m like, alright. We’re two months into living together; I don’t care that you don’t like these, you’re just going to eat them anyway. {laughs} So I throw the beets on his salad, I’m like, oh, what did you think. He’s like, well, pretty much tastes like dirt! {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: {laughing}
Diane Sanfilippo: I put sprouts and beets and all the dirt tasting vegetables in his salad.
Liz Wolfe: I’d be miserable as a vegan. {laughs}
Diane Sanfilippo: I know. I actually really like sprouts, I really like beets. Especially if I’m on a Sugar Detox or kind of eating lower-carb, and just having a little bit. It tastes so sweet, so it’s look, whoo! Instead of tasting like dirt. Anyway, hopefully those ideas helped. Let us know, and thanks for the witty question.
Liz Wolfe: Thanks for making us giggle. Thanks for making me chortle.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
4. Young, healthy, and diagnosed with shingles [28:03]
Liz Wolfe: Alright, next one. Young, healthy, and I have shingles. Alexandra says, “First, I love listening to your show. Favorite time to listen? When I’m out running. Yes, I’m a marathoner, no lectures please.” I’m wagging my finger at you.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: Just kidding. “To my question. I’m 33 years old, and was recently diagnosed with shingles, though no rash or external manifestations. As a young, healthy adult, I’m trying to understand how that happened. I have no autoimmunity issues, and I’m not immunocompromised or suppressed. I suspect that I might fall into the category of people who succumbed to shingles as a result of stress, though I have doubts about this too. My job is stressful, and I am your standard over-committed adults. All that said, my life has changed significantly in the last 6 months. I usually run 2 marathons a year, but injured my back in November, so have not been training since then. I went off birth control last June, and am back to a normal cycle. I also switched jobs in November from an extremely high stress job, to one where I have some general stress, but life is far more relaxed. Is it possible that I’m suffering some sort of PTSD response to my previous lifestyle? If so, what can I do now to get myself healthy. I finished the course of doctor-prescribed medications, which made a huge difference and got rid of the pain. Do I really have to give up running? I really do love it. I appreciate any guidance you can provide. I’d also note that since I went off birth control, I’ve put on about 15 pounds that don’t seem to shift. Also, I recently discovered canned cod liver.” Canned cod liver? “And though my husband is appalled, I love it.” I don’t, I didn’t know that was a thing.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} {squeaking}
Liz Wolfe: {laughs} “Additional info. I sleep anywhere from 7 to 9 hours a night, more on the weekends and less during the week. Exercise includes cardio 5-7 days a week, running when I’m not injured, and an elliptical or biking indoors when I am. Post injury, I’ve started lifting 4 days a week, stretching and foam rolling. I take magnesium and zinc before bed, and was taking DIM as I was trying to balance my hormones and weight post birth control.” That’s diindolylmethane for those that are curious. “I love to cook, so food is fun for me. Breakfast is 3 hardboiled eggs, salad, some smoked fish. Lunch is some mass amount of veggies with a protein, generally fish. Dinner is often a big salad.” Lots of big salads today. “With another piece of fish. I’ve just recently started eating non-fish protein, so have been incorporating chicken, beef, and liver in place of the fish. I tend to have issues with gorging on nuts in the evenings, and I can’t keep nut butters or chocolate in the house because I’ll demolish them all at once. I seem to be a bottomless pit at night. I’ve had grains perhaps twice in the last six months, both times were chocolate cake. Otherwise, I’ll have a glass of wine about two or three days a week. I don’t consume any other grains, legumes, or dairy on a regular basis, and my meals are all based on whole foods and well-sourced proteins.”
Diane Sanfilippo: Whoo!
Liz Wolfe: So, there’s just so much here that I want to comment on. First of all, shingles equals stress. That’s it. There are a lot of different ways we can kind of look at that same shingles equals stress thing, so we can say, low vitamin D is associated with shingles, or immune suppression is associated… we could talk around it, but all of these things also come back to a system that is so stressed out that it runs through its nutrient stores quickly and just can’t fight anything off. So, I feel like this is kind of a case of maybe missing the forest for the trees or something like that, where we’ve got all of these, I’m doing this, I’m doing this, check this box, check this box. And maybe not kind of seeing how this is all kind of an interconnected web of behaviors and commitments and stress and nutrition and sleep and all these different things that work together to build an overall picture of health.
I mean, sure this could be a result of previous systemic stress, whether it’s nutritional stress, not getting enough nutrients, not eating red meat and your body really being desperate for iron, or the stress from marathoning. Which ab-so-lutely causes stress. I know marathons and running and working out and anything to an extreme, it feels like stress relief for a lot of people, and they love it. But, the hormonal environment around the activity itself, and the hormonal environment around when you’re actually not doing that activity, that’s the picture that we need to see. We need to understand what our activities are doing to our hormones. That’s eating, that’s sleeping, that’s running, that’s resting, that’s absolutely everything we do, how it affects our hormonal balance. And, how that hormonal balance places stress on our bodies. So it’s more complex than just, I’m checking all these boxes and running makes me happy. So, without… I don’t want to take anything that makes people happy away from them, but just the simple fact is, it probably very well could have contributed to shingles. For sure.
Another thing that I think; you know, sometimes if we’re going to insist on doing something that maybe isn’t the healthiest because it makes us happy, you’ve got to make as many, not concessions, what word am I looking for. You’ve got to make an agreement with yourself, I guess, to really triage other aspects of your life, and not just food. So, a lot of times people feel like if you eat great, healthy food that you can kind of get away with other stuff. But, from my research, and I’ve been doing a lot of digging on hormonal control and metabolism and stress and sleep, that’s kind of my little pet project right now. I just don’t see any way to be able to have those kind of little indulgences without keeping, not just nutrition, but also stress and most importantly sleep in line. And this is where it gets really tough. Because I think, I’m becoming more and more convinced that one of the only ways to really foundationally revolutionalize your health is to start sleeping at appropriate times. So when the sun goes down, you go down. When the sun comes up, you get up. And that is really, really, really, really hard for a lot of people. It’s easier for me to make that happen because I work for myself these days, and I can make that determination, but if you’re going to be marathoning and getting shingles, then we’ve got to look at what these consequences say about the rest of our lives.
So, if you’re going to keep running, then you’ve got to try to go to bed when the sun goes down, and try to wake up with the sun. You’ve got to do your stress relief, you’ve got to keep your nutrition up, and just do all those kind of big picture things, and that’s going to be way more important than, say, taking your magnesium and zinc before bed. Like the kind of little tiny things that we do, like oh gosh! Am I taking my cod liver oil at the wrong time of day? That doesn’t matter if your sleep is messed up. So, anyway. I totally didn’t script that out, and I talked around point.
Diane Sanfilippo: That’s alright. No, it’s great. And I’m like, nodding along, and what I’m kind of, is glaring to me, the third sentence of her entire question or whatever, something down there. “I have no autoimmune issues, and I’m not immunocompromised or suppressed.” Well, if you have shingles, yes you are. So, while I definitely can appreciate that she’s not classifying herself as immune compromised. I don’t like when people put a label on themselves and then say, well, this is my problem, so whatever. I kind of like that she’s shrugging it off in a sense, but at the same time, she is ignoring the obvious. It’s an elephant in the room. If you’re doing cardio, I don’t know how intense it is, but if you’re doing it 5 to 7 days a week running…
Liz Wolfe: When you’re not injured.
Diane Sanfilippo: When you’re not injured, yeah. I mean, it’s the kind of stuff I know we sound like broken records, or people thing that we’re beating up on marathoners. It’s not that, it’s not, oh I hate running, so don’t run, because it’s horrible for everyone. It’s not that. But if you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, you start to notice a trend. You wouldn’t believe how many of these exact same questions that we get that we don’t bring onto the show, because we do answer them a lot and 9 times out of 10, the person who is saying they are a runner, the types of problems that they have absolutely can be tied back to, just the systemic stress that happens when you run. It doesn’t mean that running is bad for everyone. We would never say that. Because, you know, if I want to run a couple of miles, and I’m not in a book editing, crazy stressful time, then it feels good and I’m fine after that.
But somebody saying, I have this immune system issue, which is the shingles, and I want to run every day, I’m sorry but I can’t support that. I just can’t say, yes, I give you my blessing. Now, I’m like you. I don’t want to take away the thing that somebody loves. And, when I’ve been under extreme stress and wanted to go to Crossfit, I didn’t do Crossfit when I went to the gym. I went in the corner, and sort of lifted on my own. My coaches and I kind of reminisce back to that time, it was a couple of months when I was working on Practical Paleo at the very end there, and my body was physically not responding well to the type of stress that Crossfit was providing to it. And under different circumstances, like right now for example, I can go, do the workout that’s on the board, and I’m just fine. Because I’m not under the same stress.
So if you’ve got this issue of shingles, you have to make a decision; do you want to pull out these extreme stressors in your life? You might not think that it’s a stressor, but perfect example of how running is stressful on the body. Especially something that’s more than quick sprints or a mile or two. Just depending on how you run, how you approach it, etc, and everybody’s body will react a little bit differently. But if you’ve ever run a few miles for example, even one, but I think it generally happens after the first one. Say you’ve got a little nagging pain, in your knee, or your ankle, your foot, somewhere, your hip. Something on your body is sort of hurting. And then, it’s crazy what happens, a few more minutes into running, that pain seems to go away. And that is because our body is providing this cortisol stress response that actually suppresses pain. But that’s exactly what we don’t want happening, is that stress response when we’re working out if we’re in this situation.
We had a question just a couple of weeks ago, I think, where someone was saying they were looking at the autoimmune protocol, and they were like, is the exercise portion that you recommend really that important. I’m like, yes, that’s why I recommend it. I wouldn’t say it if I didn’t mean it. So, yeah, I think that’s kind of the glaring elephant in the room, red flag, and the way I approach this kind of thing is, it doesn’t mean you can’t run ever again. But if you’re trying to get this shingles under control, which, from my understanding, it can flare up and then kind of calm down. If you’re trying to get it under control, just like when we talk about folks who are in an autoimmune flare, then maybe running isn’t the best idea right now. Or maybe cut it back to 50% of what you’re doing. See what results you get. You might be surprised that the 15 pounds that won’t go away actually come off when you remove stress from your system.
It’s like a huge secret that people don’t understand is, a lot of times weight loss resistance is a product of too much stress on the body. It doesn’t have anything to do with calories in, calories out. Sometimes it’s not enough food. She doesn’t even say anywhere in her day where she might be eating some good dense carbs, and if she’s running as much as she is, there should definitely be a sweet potato or something carby, at least with her dinner, so that she’s getting that in. I think there was also something; “bottomless pit at night.” That’s like a clear-cut sign that you haven’t eaten enough carbs with dinner, especially for a really active person. I get that question all the time. I had more to say about that than I thought I did.
Liz Wolfe: I do love, however, that she was eating mostly fish protein, and now she’s all, “I’m eating, beef and liver” {laughs} “in place of the fish.”
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. Totally.
Liz Wolfe: Love that.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.
Liz Wolfe: And maybe even it’s possible to channel some of this energy that’s really focused on endurance exercise into something that will kind of improve the hormonal environment a little bit more, like sprints, or hill sprints, or max 400 meters, that type of thing. If you must.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yes. I would just scale it way back. I just think you’d be surprised at how little exercise it takes to get your body to a level of fitness that you want. I do think that’s kind of the big secret; it’s like, what’s the least amount we can do to have the best response.
Liz Wolfe: What about sword fighting?
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah let’s do that.
Liz Wolfe: Like straight up, Game of Thrones type of sword fighting. None of this fencing stuff.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Yeah. Ok.
5. The animals I eat are eating foods I’m trying to avoid. [41:39]
Liz Wolfe: Ok. The animals I eat are eating foods I’m trying to avoid. Is grass-fed really the only way to go. Ashley says, or Ash says, “Thanks for the super helpful free SIBO guide. My question is about the diet of animals. It’s quite easy to find organic, grass-fed pasture-raised beef. However, it gets more tricky with poultry, chicken and turkey, and pork. The organic poultry that I eat states that the animals are fed a vegetarian grain diet. The pork I regularly purchase from the farmer’s market is not organic, and only “natural” non-GMO. The farmer said the pigs are fed corn, among other things. I follow a paleo diet, and avoid grains, legumes, and corn, yet the animals I’m eating are fed those foods. Should I only be eating grass-fed beef? Also, do you have any resources where I could buy part of a cow? Should I ask the farmer who sells organic beef at the farmers market? My new healthy lifestyle cleared my acne, but what can I do about the scars?”
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}
Liz Wolfe: Ok, so there’s like several questions.
Diane Sanfilippo: That was amazing. That’s a totally different question.
Liz Wolfe: I mean, get them in while you can, right? {laughs} Yes, ask your farmer, or go to eatwild.com to find a cow.
Diane Sanfilippo: The acne one is the next question. Hopefully we can keep it now that we’ve teased it.
Liz Wolfe: Oh, yeah. What do you think about, should I only be eating grass-fed beef. What do you think about corn?
Diane Sanfilippo: What do I think about corn?
Liz Wolfe: Or is this one for me?
Diane Sanfilippo: No! I mean, I think. Ok, so, I don’t think the question was so much about beef, because she’s saying it’s easy to find that. Let’s go animal by animal and just take it step by step. So the poultry vegetarian grain diet. I think it’s really hard to find pastured poultry, and I think that’s a personal choice that everyone has to make for themselves. I do think it’s important to try and find organic, or non-GMO pastured chicken if you can. If you can’t find it, you just have to make that call. If you don’t want to be eating red meat all the time or fish, and you want to get some chicken, maybe organic is the best you can find, and so you go with that. I don’t personally think it’s the end of the world. I think worrying about the minutia and having things perfect is not ideal. But I do think, you know, if it’s important to you, continue to source where you can find it, you might even be able to ask that grass-fed cow farmer where, you know, somebody around him who has chickens. Because we’ve actually had that happen a bunch of times. Or we’ve been like, hey, do you know anywhere we can get some chickens, and their neighbor down the street raises chickens.
That’s kind of what I think on the chicken. If it’s super critical to you, I have this whole guide to food quality in Practical Paleo. It’s on my website for free. It’s really your call. And some of it also is cost-prohibitive. Because pastured chicken is really expensive. There’s a whole spectrum there. The same thing kind of goes with pork. The difference with pigs is that they’re a lot more omnivorous, and can really eat a lot of things and still be healthy. So while I would still recommend, you want to try and find pigs that have been fed organic, non-GMO, if they’re fed grains, or legumes, or corn, I don’t think it’s as problematic. I do know there are some people who react to meats if they’ve eaten something that that person can’t eat. People who are that sensitive, but I think kind of in the grand scheme of things, the last pig share we got, I asked the farmer about the feed, and it wasn’t organic or non-GMO certified, and I just had to say, ok. I’ve kind of already bought this half a hog. I saw how the pigs were raised. I’m looking at what’s happening, and I think they have a really good life, and pigs are a little bit more resilient to that stuff.
That’s kind of what I think about that. I don’t personally think just because you can’t find what’s perfect that you should only eat grass-fed beef. I do think that varying your protein is a good idea. I think there are a lot of issues that can crop up from just eating one type of protein. So, if it comes down to grass-fed beef and wild caught fish, and you don’t want to do poultry or pork, I think that’s another option, but it’s definitely pretty expensive, too. Your thoughts?
Liz Wolfe: I agree. I think sometimes the use of grains, especially with pigs, and this is just drawing from my experience out here. Our pigs are pastured 100% of the time. They sleep in the pasture, they’re in the pasture all day, and they eat whatever they can find out there. They eat grass, the large blacks are really well suited for certain pasture grasses, and they dig up grubs, and they eat black walnuts, and all that stuff, whatever they find out there, but twice a day we come out and we give them our veggie scraps and a little bit of non-GMO, soy-free grain. Because what that enables us to do, is just keep them bonded to us, keep them looking out for us, they will come to us, and it enables us to check on them. See how they’re doing, and make sure they’re doing alright. So it might just be that. I think that’s probably happening.
Our chickens, during the summer, are outside 100% of the time. Summer, spring, and most of fall. And that’s how they forage. We do keep a little bit of grain in the coop; just a little bit, they don’t need it, but they come back to it at night, and I don’t know. It seems helpful. I’m sure that’s different depending on what kind of scale you’re doing these things on. Huge farms may do things differently, and there may even be people that don’t feed their pigs any grain at all. But I certainly don’t think it’s the end of the world. Especially if you can get an idea of the conditions in which the animals were raised.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. That’s exactly what I was going to say too. I think at some point, like my gut instinct on how I felt about the pig feed, what they get in addition to whatever they’re foraging not being organic, or non-GMO, or soy-free. Just kind of meeting the pigs, just seeing where they’re raised and the people who are raising them, at some point that became much more important. You know?
Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.
Diane Sanfilippo: It was more like, ok, this is not a feed lot. These pigs are fast, and they are running far, and they are having a great life, and I’m under no illusion that the situation is perfect, but I actually think the conditions they are raised in {laughs}. You know, a lot of us are not fed perfect food. And we come out ok.
Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.
Diane Sanfilippo: So, you know. I think it’s more important. I think going to find how the animal is raised is more important. I do think with cows, getting them 100% grass-fed is pretty easy. Sometimes they’re grain finished, because the farmer has an easier time selling that, or something happens. Meet the farmer. Find out what the grain is. Find out what the situation is. And then don’t feel badly if that’s the kind of meat that you buy, if what’ you’re supporting is a small farmer, and that’s all you can get. I still think it’s a way better option. I do think it’s important to try and source your meat as locally as possible, and so supporting those farms. And then continue to maybe delicately bring up the topic. Maybe you get a bunch of people buying from them, and at some point you can ask them about that, and then let them know you’d be willing to pay an extra 50 cents a pound or a quarter a pound or whatever it might be to support the fact that they might be able to buy a different type of feed. I don’t think people should be scared to have those conversations, I would just be delicate and be respectful about it, too.
Liz Wolfe: Cool beans.
Diane Sanfilippo: You want to try and quickly tackle this one that you alluded to, and then we can close out with my kitchen tip?
6. What can I do about old acne scars? [49:39]
Liz Wolfe: My new healthy lifestyle cleared my acne, but what can I do about scars? That one?
Diane Sanfilippo: Yes.
Liz Wolfe: Cool. Well, if you want to do things naturally, there are some essential oils, or I’m sorry. Not essential oils; there are some topical oils that can work really, really well, but you have to give them a little bit of time and apply them every day. I really like rosehip seed oil. You can get that on Amazon for a pretty good price; a little bit goes a long way. You can add some, I’m going to say it wrong, helichrysum, some carrot seed oil, maybe, something like that to the mix. You know that there are people out there that are obsessed with essential oils. I’m not necessarily one of them, so, I don’t know, I’m sure people will write in telling us all about essential oils that could help with this, so check the comments, but Primal Life Organics also has some really good, I think their Infinity line would be really good for scar relief. But most of the natural stuff is going to take some time to work, but it can really work wonders. I’m also going to have a scar serum in the skin care line. I know that’s kind of far away, but look out for that.
Diane Sanfilippo: Awesome.
7. Diane’s kitchen tip [50:55]
Liz Wolfe: Cool! Alright, so what’s your kitchen tip of the day?
Diane Sanfilippo: Ok. Of the week?
Liz Wolfe: Yeah. A week.
Diane Sanfilippo: This better last people a whole week.
Liz Wolfe: Do I have to do it the whole week? Jeeze.
Diane Sanfilippo: The whole week. Ok, so I think one of my previous tips was something about salads. But, because it’s summer, and it’s hot as all get out here in New Jersey, I’ve been making a ton of salads lately, and I am just, you know, as much as I love some of the sort of paleo friendly dressing companies out there for some of their sauces, I like to make my own salad dressing. I just have a thing about it. You know, I don’t make sandwiches anymore, so there’s things I just like to make from scratch. I think salad dressing is one of the easiest things to make from scratch if you just get a simple formula down in your head that you just repeat over and over, and you kind of plug and play. Where you just swap out the ingredients. So, here’s how you make a really simple salad dressing, and you can swap these ingredients out however you want.
Basically, you start with your acid. So, either lemon juice, lime juice, orange juice, any kind of vinegar. You use one-third of that ingredient to two-thirds of your oil. But start with your acid. So, if it’s going to be lemon juice, you squeeze your lemons into your big mixing bowl, add some salt and pepper at that point and start whisking it together. Because that acid, I learned this from Paleo By Season, actually, from Pete Servold’s book, is that the acid will actually help to break down the salt, but if you add the salt later, it won’t break down as easily. So add your salt and pepper to your acid, start whisking it. Take a little bit, maybe half a teaspoon or a teaspoon of gluten-free mustard. I really like a stone-ground, like a brown mustard. Add that to the mix, whisk that in, and then slowly just drizzle your two-thirds, maybe it’s two-thirds of a cup for example, of whether it’s olive oil or avocado oil, whatever kind of oil you want.
I usually do lemon juice, or vinegar, and an olive oil. So I pour the olive oil in, just start whisking it, and what that mustard will do is it will help to create the emulsification between the oil and the vinegar. You know, a lot of times you have a salad dressing in your refrigerator, and it’s all separated. Or you make your salad dressing, and you’re whisking the oil and vinegar together, and you’re like, why is this not combining? The mustard is really going to help that to emulsify. So that, it just takes a little bit. If you don’t love the taste of mustard, you can just put a tiny bit. If you like it, you can use more. And that is my big kitchen tip.
Now, there’s plenty of ways to kind of spruce it up, and make it a little more exciting. You can do some finely diced shallots in there, or maybe a little bit of fresh, grated garlic. Just a tiny bit. But my basic dressing that I do pretty much all the time is either lemon juice or vinegar, and then, like I said, salt, pepper, a little bit of mustard, and then olive oil. That’s it.
Liz Wolfe: Wow. That’s great.
Diane Sanfilippo: So easy.
Liz Wolfe: So easy.
Diane Sanfilippo: And it’s so, so good when it’s fresh like that. And then you know exactly the quality of the olive oil that you’re using, you know that your lemon juice is fresh, and you’re getting your vitamin C from it, too. You know, if you’re using a lemon juice dressing that’s kind of just sitting around in the fridge, you’re not getting any vitamin C from that. It literally will take you 30 seconds to make salad dressing. So, it’s worth it.
Liz Wolfe: Very cool.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah!
Liz Wolfe: Well, that’s it.
Diane Sanfilippo: That’s it!
Liz Wolfe: We’ll be back next week with more questions. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, remember to subscribe and help us spread the word by leaving a review in iTunes. As always, you can find Diane at http://dianesanfilippo.com, and you can find me at https://realfoodliz.com/. Be sure to join our email lists, where we provide exclusive content to our subscribers that we don’t put anywhere else. Thanks for listening.

Cheers! Diane & Liz